Reply by Jim Thompson May 18, 20132013-05-18
On Sat, 18 May 2013 01:47:35 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

> >Jim Thompson wrote: >> >> Officially "Jerk" is the derivative of acceleration. I knew not of it >> until I was called in to design an elevator controller chip for a >> company in Little Rock. > > > 'Jerks' in Little Rock? Was this during the 'Clinton era'?
That was BC (before Clinton). ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by Michael A. Terrell May 18, 20132013-05-18
Jim Thompson wrote:
> > Officially "Jerk" is the derivative of acceleration. I knew not of it > until I was called in to design an elevator controller chip for a > company in Little Rock.
'Jerks' in Little Rock? Was this during the 'Clinton era'?
Reply by Jim Thompson May 17, 20132013-05-17
On Fri, 17 May 2013 18:52:27 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

>In article <ns77p89gcra1gk37fvjl3gb5bq9rbhchfa@4ax.com>, Jim Thompson ><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, 15 May 2013 03:52:43 -0700, josephkk >> <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >On Tue, 14 May 2013 20:41:34 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader >> ><presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote: >> > >> >> >> >>>> Do you know if there is a correct term for the hysteresis or recovery of >> >>>> a >> >>>> dielectric in a capacitor? I've never seen it listed on a datasheet ... >> >>> >> >>> HAHAHAHAHA! Welcome to the wonderful world of materials properties. The >> >>> failure-to-discharge one usually sees is called 'soakage'. >> >>> Soakage is a charge-migration in insulator materials. If, however, you >> >>> want to deal with nonlinearities in a MLC capacitor, it's not generally >> >>> just a >> >>> dielectric problem, but concerns ferroelectric materials. So, one would >> >>> have to Spice-model a three-dimensional material with grains that flip >> >>> from one polarization to another, in a regime of mixed grain sizes, >> >>> with nontrivial interactions between adjacent grains. >> >>> >> >>> Detailed models are too messy; describe a test regime instead, and >> >>> set desirable limits on the as-tested properties. >> >>> and orientations, with temperature and stress dependencies. >> >> >> >>so it sounds like "soakage" wins. >> >> >> >>are there any units or measure of this property? >> > >> >Percent wrinkliness? >> > >> >?-) >> >> It's be DA plus (somehow) denoting a frequency response, or maybe it's >> delay... maybe like the diffusion equation? > >I've seen it done by tracking voltage recovery using a very high >impedance voltmeter. The math model is a mess of RC circuits with >widely varying time constants hooked together, in some combination of >series and parallel. > >I recall that Bob Pease talked about soakage in one of his books. >Probably in an app note as well. > > >> Anyone know the MKS dimensions of JERK ?>:-} > >Well, in the SI system (the successor to MKS), it's meters per second >cubed. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerk_%28physics%29> > >But I always thought one handled jerks by enumeration. > >Joe Gwinn
Officially "Jerk" is the derivative of acceleration. I knew not of it until I was called in to design an elevator controller chip for a company in Little Rock. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by Joe Gwinn May 17, 20132013-05-17
In article <ns77p89gcra1gk37fvjl3gb5bq9rbhchfa@4ax.com>, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 15 May 2013 03:52:43 -0700, josephkk > <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > >On Tue, 14 May 2013 20:41:34 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader > ><presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote: > > > >> > >>>> Do you know if there is a correct term for the hysteresis or recovery of > >>>> a > >>>> dielectric in a capacitor? I've never seen it listed on a datasheet ... > >>> > >>> HAHAHAHAHA! Welcome to the wonderful world of materials properties. The > >>> failure-to-discharge one usually sees is called 'soakage'. > >>> Soakage is a charge-migration in insulator materials. If, however, you > >>> want to deal with nonlinearities in a MLC capacitor, it's not generally > >>> just a > >>> dielectric problem, but concerns ferroelectric materials. So, one would > >>> have to Spice-model a three-dimensional material with grains that flip > >>> from one polarization to another, in a regime of mixed grain sizes, > >>> with nontrivial interactions between adjacent grains. > >>> > >>> Detailed models are too messy; describe a test regime instead, and > >>> set desirable limits on the as-tested properties. > >>> and orientations, with temperature and stress dependencies. > >> > >>so it sounds like "soakage" wins. > >> > >>are there any units or measure of this property? > > > >Percent wrinkliness? > > > >?-) > > It's be DA plus (somehow) denoting a frequency response, or maybe it's > delay... maybe like the diffusion equation?
I've seen it done by tracking voltage recovery using a very high impedance voltmeter. The math model is a mess of RC circuits with widely varying time constants hooked together, in some combination of series and parallel. I recall that Bob Pease talked about soakage in one of his books. Probably in an app note as well.
> Anyone know the MKS dimensions of JERK ?>:-}
Well, in the SI system (the successor to MKS), it's meters per second cubed. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerk_%28physics%29> But I always thought one handled jerks by enumeration. Joe Gwinn
Reply by Jim Thompson May 15, 20132013-05-15
On Wed, 15 May 2013 03:52:43 -0700, josephkk
<joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 14 May 2013 20:41:34 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader ><presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote: > >> >>>> Do you know if there is a correct term for the hysteresis or recovery of a >>>> dielectric in a capacitor? I've never seen it listed on a datasheet ... >>> >>> HAHAHAHAHA! Welcome to the wonderful world of materials properties. The >>> failure-to-discharge one usually sees is called 'soakage'. >>> Soakage is a charge-migration in insulator materials. If, however, you >>> want to deal with nonlinearities in a MLC capacitor, it's not generally just a >>> dielectric problem, but concerns ferroelectric materials. So, one would >>> have to Spice-model a three-dimensional material with grains that flip >>> from one polarization to another, in a regime of mixed grain sizes, >>> with nontrivial interactions between adjacent grains. >>> >>> Detailed models are too messy; describe a test regime instead, and >>> set desirable limits on the as-tested properties. >>> and orientations, with temperature and stress dependencies. >> >>so it sounds like "soakage" wins. >> >>are there any units or measure of this property? > >Percent wrinkliness? > >?-)
It's be DA plus (somehow) denoting a frequency response, or maybe it's delay... maybe like the diffusion equation? Anyone know the MKS dimensions of JERK ?>:-} ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by josephkk May 15, 20132013-05-15
On Tue, 14 May 2013 20:41:34 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
<presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

> >>> Do you know if there is a correct term for the hysteresis or recovery=
of a =20
>>> dielectric in a capacitor? I've never seen it listed on a datasheet =
...
>>=20 >> HAHAHAHAHA! Welcome to the wonderful world of materials properties. =
The
>> failure-to-discharge one usually sees is called 'soakage'.=20 >> Soakage is a charge-migration in insulator materials. If, however, =
you
>> want to deal with nonlinearities in a MLC capacitor, it's not =
generally just a
>> dielectric problem, but concerns ferroelectric materials. So, one =
would
>> have to Spice-model a three-dimensional material with grains that flip >> from one polarization to another, in a regime of mixed grain sizes, >> with nontrivial interactions between adjacent grains. >>=20 >> Detailed models are too messy; describe a test regime instead, and >> set desirable limits on the as-tested properties. >> and orientations, with temperature and stress dependencies. =20 > >so it sounds like "soakage" wins. > >are there any units or measure of this property?
Percent wrinkliness? ?-)
Reply by George Herold May 14, 20132013-05-14
On May 14, 10:49=A0am, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> On 05/14/2013 10:33 AM, John Larkin wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, 14 May 2013 07:19:58 -0400, Phil Hobbs > > <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote: > > >> On 5/14/2013 12:15 AM, John Larkin wrote: > >>> On Tue, 14 May 2013 03:57:56 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader > >>> <prese...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote: > > >>>> John Larkin <jjlar...@highnotlandthistechnologypart.com> wrote: > >>>>> On Thu, 9 May 2013 18:09:04 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader > >>>>> <prese...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote: > > >>>>>> John Larkin <jjlar...@highnotlandthistechnologypart.com> wrote: > >>>>>>> On Thu, 09 May 2013 00:26:27 -0500, Vladimir Vassilevsky <nos...@=
nowhere.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> On 5/9/2013 12:08 AM, John Larkin wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> Does anybody have an LT Spice example that models the C-V depen=
dence of a
> >>>>>>>>> ceramic cap? I was thinking about the parametric frequency divi=
der that I did
> >>>>>>>>> with a diode, and it occurs to me that a capacitor's c (probabl=
y) falls off
> >>>>>>>>> symmetrically with +- voltage, but a diode is asymmetric. So th=
e capacitor based
> >>>>>>>>> parametric divider is different. > > >>>>>>>>> It might be fun to play with that. > > >>>>>>>> Isn't capacitor voltage dependence relatively slow physical effe=
ct ?
> > >>>>>>> It's fast enough to cause distortion at audio frequencies, but it=
does seem to
> >>>>>>> be very, very messy. > > >>>>>>> This guy did a lot of testing... > > >>>>>>>http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/capacitor_voltage_change.htm > > >>>>>> very nice page there. > > >>>>>> mylar wins! > > >>>>> Except for the horrible DA! > > >>>> Do you know if there is a correct term for the hysteresis or recover=
y of a
> >>>> dielectric in a capacitor? I've never seen it listed on a =A0datashe=
et other
> >>>> than the "short terminals during shipping and storage" for high volt=
age
> >>>> film caps. > > >>> That's technically also dielectric absorption, just on a long time sc=
ale.
> >>> Electrolytics can recover several per cent of their previous voltage,=
if
> >>> discharged briefly. In a film cap, a few per cent of 20KV could still=
be
> >>> interesting. > > >>>> When I was super super exciteed to wind my own caps, I recall that o=
ne
> >>>> particular plastic, (possibly acetate?) was virtually impossible to > >>>> completey discharge at once. You could draw arcs off the things over=
and
> >>>> over and over again. > > >>> Mylar caps have bad DA in the millisecond time scale. They are nasty =
for
> >>> sample-hold, precision integrators, ramp generators, dual-slope ADCs. > > >>> Not that anybody uses dual-slope ADCs much any more. > > >> The good old engineering term is 'soakage'. > > > Imagine a cartoon, several capacitors sitting in a hot tub, with cockta=
ils.
> > I got as far as triboelectric charging, and then had to change the > channel. ;)
Wow, so you missed the big arc discharge.. George H.
> > Cheers > > Phil Hobbs > > -- > Dr Philip C D Hobbs > Principal Consultant > ElectroOptical Innovations LLC > Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics > > 160 North State Road #203 > Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 > > hobbs at electrooptical dot nethttp://electrooptical.net- Hide quoted tex=
t -
> > - Show quoted text -
Reply by Cydrome Leader May 14, 20132013-05-14
whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, May 13, 2013 8:57:56 PM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote: >> John Larkin <jjlarkin@highnotlandthistechnologypart.com> wrote: >> >> > On Thu, 9 May 2013 18:09:04 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader >> >> > <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >>John Larkin <jjlarkin@highnotlandthistechnologypart.com> wrote: >> >> >>> On Thu, 09 May 2013 00:26:27 -0500, Vladimir Vassilevsky <nospam@nowhere.com> >> >> >>> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>On 5/9/2013 12:08 AM, John Larkin wrote: > >> >>>>> Does anybody have an LT Spice example that models the C-V dependence of a >> >>>>> ceramic cap? > >> Do you know if there is a correct term for the hysteresis or recovery of a >> dielectric in a capacitor? I've never seen it listed on a datasheet ... > > HAHAHAHAHA! Welcome to the wonderful world of materials properties. The > failure-to-discharge one usually sees is called 'soakage'. > Soakage is a charge-migration in insulator materials. If, however, you > want to deal with nonlinearities in a MLC capacitor, it's not generally just a > dielectric problem, but concerns ferroelectric materials. So, one would > have to Spice-model a three-dimensional material with grains that flip > from one polarization to another, in a regime of mixed grain sizes, > with nontrivial interactions between adjacent grains. > > Detailed models are too messy; describe a test regime instead, and > set desirable limits on the as-tested properties. > and orientations, with temperature and stress dependencies.
so it sounds like "soakage" wins. are there any units or measure of this property?
Reply by whit3rd May 14, 20132013-05-14
On Monday, May 13, 2013 8:57:56 PM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> John Larkin <jjlarkin@highnotlandthistechnologypart.com> wrote: > > > On Thu, 9 May 2013 18:09:04 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader > > > <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote: > > > > > >>John Larkin <jjlarkin@highnotlandthistechnologypart.com> wrote: > > >>> On Thu, 09 May 2013 00:26:27 -0500, Vladimir Vassilevsky <nospam@nowhere.com> > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>>On 5/9/2013 12:08 AM, John Larkin wrote:
> >>>>> Does anybody have an LT Spice example that models the C-V dependence of a > >>>>> ceramic cap?
> Do you know if there is a correct term for the hysteresis or recovery of a > dielectric in a capacitor? I've never seen it listed on a datasheet ...
HAHAHAHAHA! Welcome to the wonderful world of materials properties. The failure-to-discharge one usually sees is called 'soakage'. Soakage is a charge-migration in insulator materials. If, however, you want to deal with nonlinearities in a MLC capacitor, it's not generally just a dielectric problem, but concerns ferroelectric materials. So, one would have to Spice-model a three-dimensional material with grains that flip from one polarization to another, in a regime of mixed grain sizes, with nontrivial interactions between adjacent grains. Detailed models are too messy; describe a test regime instead, and set desirable limits on the as-tested properties. and orientations, with temperature and stress dependencies.
Reply by Jim Thompson May 14, 20132013-05-14
On Mon, 13 May 2013 17:13:33 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 08 May 2013 22:08:36 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > >> >>Does anybody have an LT Spice example that models the C-V dependence of a >>ceramic cap? I was thinking about the parametric frequency divider that I did >>with a diode, and it occurs to me that a capacitor's c (probably) falls off >>symmetrically with +- voltage, but a diode is asymmetric. So the capacitor based >>parametric divider is different. >> >>It might be fun to play with that. > >Here you go... > > http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/CapacitorVersusVoltage_Y5U.pdf > >Published curves directly digitized with my (nearly) favorite tool, > >GetData Graph Digitizer... > > http://getdata-graph-digitizer.com/ > >digitizes anything you already have as a graphical file, or can scan. > > ...Jim Thompson
Subcircuit as text for any who want to test drive... ****************************************************************** .SUBCKT Y5U PLUS MINUS PARAMS: C=1nF ** Generated by GetData Graph Digitizer 2.24 on May 13 2013, 08:38 ** from file ...\Capacitor_Voltage_Change_Data_Formatted.txt C_C1 PLUS INT1 {C} V_VM INT1 MINUS G_G1 PLUS MINUS VALUE { ((V(INT2, MINUS))-1)*I(V_VM) } R_E_E1 INT2 MINUS 1G E_E1 INT2 MINUS TABLE { abs(V(PLUS, MINUS)) } + (0,1 + 0.9765,0.997 + 1.952,0.9809 + 3.0567,0.95 + 4.096,0.91324 + 5.395,0.8618 + 6.433,0.81332 + 7.602,0.7604 + 8.705,0.709 + 9.679,0.66785 + 10.588,0.6355 + 11.822,0.5856 + 12.991,0.5488 + 15.396,0.4783 + 16.89,0.44 + 18.32,0.4121 + 20.4,0.3739 + 24.11,0.3253 + 27.753,0.2855 + 30.226,0.2634 + 34.455,0.2339 + 39.467,0.2059 + 44.153,0.1852 + 50.2,0.163) .ENDS Y5U ****************************************************************** ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.