>On 10/22/2012 9:04 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, G�nter Haarmann wrote:
>>> Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
>>>> simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.
>>>>
>>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>>
>>>
>>> No. if you don�t want to give you won�t receive.
>>>
>>> You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.
>>
>> I dunno. Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't
>> expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as
>> the production parts. (For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favor of
>> people being able to make a living.)
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>>
> Someone needs to make a living... and pay the taxes for the 47% that
>don't! Or someone needs to work to pay the taxes required to fill the
>welfare kitty with that 1.032 trillion dollars every year.
> The government says we have 46 million people in poverty in 2012.
>If you divide 1.032 trillion by 46 million that is $22,434 per person.
>Minimum wage is about $15,000. Hmm...
Which means a lot of people are being employed AND make good money to
help the unemployed :-)
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Reply by Jasen Betts●October 23, 20122012-10-23
On 2012-10-22, amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote:
> Someone needs to make a living... and pay the taxes for the 47% that
> don't! Or someone needs to work to pay the taxes required to fill the
> welfare kitty with that 1.032 trillion dollars every year.
> The government says we have 46 million people in poverty in 2012.
> If you divide 1.032 trillion by 46 million that is $22,434 per person.
> Minimum wage is about $15,000. Hmm...
perhaps minimum wage isn't enough to live on?
--
⚂⚃ 100% natural
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
Reply by Mike Perkins●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On 22/10/2012 21:38, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 10/22/2012 03:08 PM, Mike Perkins wrote:
> > On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:
> >>
> >> Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
> >> not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
> >> my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.
> >>
> >> ...Jim Thompson
> >>
> >
> > I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
> > manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
> > statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
> > whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.
> >
> If you read the datasheet carefully, that good performance only exists
> over a certain range of parameters, and is only typical, not guaranteed.
> See the list of datasheet references I posted in the other HC4046
> thread a few days ago.
>
Whilst I agree that each manufacturer gives a range for each parameter,
my experience is that each manufacturer produced devices which were
amazingly consistent, but wildly changing from one manufacturer to
another. I recall that each manufacturer specified their 74HC4046 very
differently to show theirs in the best light. One problem I had years
ago was that one version produced over 25MHz irrespective of R and C
with a control voltage at +5V, causing my counters to fail and the whole
PLL to fall over!
--
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk
Reply by Phil Hobbs●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On 10/22/2012 03:08 PM, Mike Perkins wrote:
> On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:
>>
>> Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
>> not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
>> my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>
> I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
> manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
> statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
> whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.
>
If you read the datasheet carefully, that good performance only exists
over a certain range of parameters, and is only typical, not guaranteed.
See the list of datasheet references I posted in the other HC4046
thread a few days ago.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Reply by amdx●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On 10/22/2012 9:04 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, G�nter Haarmann wrote:
>> Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:
>>
>>>
>>> I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
>>> simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.
>>>
>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>
>>
>> No. if you don�t want to give you won�t receive.
>>
>> You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.
>
> I dunno. Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't
> expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as
> the production parts. (For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favor of
> people being able to make a living.)
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
Someone needs to make a living... and pay the taxes for the 47% that
don't! Or someone needs to work to pay the taxes required to fill the
welfare kitty with that 1.032 trillion dollars every year.
The government says we have 46 million people in poverty in 2012.
If you divide 1.032 trillion by 46 million that is $22,434 per person.
Minimum wage is about $15,000. Hmm...
Mikek
Reply by Jim Thompson●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:08:24 +0100, Mike Perkins <spam@spam.com>
wrote:
>On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:
>>
>> Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
>> not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
>> my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>
>I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
>manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
>statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
>whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.
I'm just going from reports here, primarily Phil Hobbs' bad
experiences. ALL of the data sheets look wonderful ;-)
I can certainly think of ways to improve it, particularly the current
mirrors, though a complete architecture change could easily eliminate
lots of the non-linearity issues.
Whoever rolled the CMOS copy totally missed an important point, don't
dump the capacitor into a substrate diode.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by Mike Perkins●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
> not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
> my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.
>
> ...Jim Thompson
>
I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.
--
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk
Reply by Jim Thompson●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 13:26:13 +0200, G�nter Haarmann <none@none.de>
wrote:
>Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:
>
>>
>> I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
>> simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>
>No. if you don�t want to give you won�t receive.
>
>You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.
I GAVE you a model. I didn't charge for it. I encrypted it to
conceal my "tricks of the trade".
I know my model works under LTspice...
http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/74HC4046_VCO_SUB_SIM_LT.pdf
my submission was simply to make sure it also works after encryption.
Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply by George Herold●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On Oct 22, 10:04=A0am, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, G=FCnter Haarmann wrote:
>
> > Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:
>
> >> I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
> >> simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.
>
> >> ...Jim Thompson
>
> > No. if you don=B4t want to give you won=B4t receive.
>
> > You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.
>
> I dunno. =A0Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't
> expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as
> the production parts. =A0(For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favour of
> people being able to make a living.)
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
> --
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> Principal Consultant
> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
>
> 160 North State Road #203
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
>
> hobbs at electrooptical dot nethttp://electrooptical.net
Hi Guys, OK I just finished test9ng the difference between the TI and
NXP versions of the VCO in the HC4046. The good news (for me) is
there's hardly any difference between the two. (This is with a VCO
'bias' resistor of 4.02k ohm.) (And four different caps, 2.7nF,
7.4nF, 22 nF, and 66nF +/-5%.)
The supply voltage was 6.36 Volts.
Here's the data for the TI version. First column is the VCO voltage
(in volts)
and the next four are the VCO frequencies in kHz. (Frequencies only
measured on a digital 'scope so don't believe all those decimal
places :^)
George H.
0.9082 127.5 46 13.91 5.056
1.0114 141.87 51.197 15.475 5.621
1.2868 180.11 65.027 19.667 7.147
1.444 202.49 73.105 22.108 8.0316
1.7823 251.05 90.717 27.467 9.978
2.0047 283.96 102.664 31.093 11.295
2.3282 333.68 120.78 36.616 13.299
2.6532 386.36 140.04 42.496 15.448
2.9967 445.53 161.81 49.174 17.887
3.2618 494.67 179.89 54.719 19.9
3.6809 579.032 211.26 64.377 23.43
3.945 637.65 233.1 71.126 25.896
4.1987 698.34 255.92 78.196 28.48
4.5543 791.99 291.198 89.157 32.49
4.8743 888.35 327.83 100.57 36.7
5.063 951.81 352.09 108.17 39.5
5.2847 1036.2 384.52 118.37 43.26
5.508 1143.4 425.94 131.41 48.07
5.714 1370.4 512.235 158.65 58.195
Reply by Phil Hobbs●October 22, 20122012-10-22
On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, G�nter Haarmann wrote:
> Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:
>
>>
>> I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
>> simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>
> No. if you don�t want to give you won�t receive.
>
> You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.
I dunno. Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't
expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as
the production parts. (For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favour of
people being able to make a living.)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net