On Jun 3, 12:39=A0pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> > On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:09:00 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk...@arcor.de> w=
rote:
>
> >> Am 03.06.2012 16:51, schrieb Joerg:
>
> >>> Yeah, Phil needs to buy a bunch of this stuff and also get used to th=
e
> >>> 01005 SMT size if he has more such design jobs coming. You can't even
> >>> see those anymore. And absolutely positively no sneezing on the job :=
-)
>
> >> I once showed the Murata 01005 capacitor kit to a customer's
> >> solder ladies. They were not amused :-)
>
> > I highly doubt we'll ever use them. =A0The MEs are balking at a few 020=
1
> > decoupling capacitors (needed for fine-pitched BGAs). ...
>
> And exactly that is one of the sad, sad problems we have in the western
> world. "Oh, that's too difficult!". In Asia they usually say "Ok, let's
> see if we can get that done". If we don't push the envelope, someone
> else will. Followed by jobs going away.
>
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ... Everything (that can
> > be) is 0402s. =A0That's more than enough for my eyes (and dexterity), e=
ven with
> > a Mantis.
>
> That's ok, same here. But production folks need to get their hands
> around that. Else their jobs will go away some day. At my previous
> employer our MEs encountered the same attitude at the major
> semiconductor equipment makers that your MEs professed: "You cannot do
> flip-chip bonding to 5um precision". So we built it ourselves together
> with a contract manufacturer where they didn't wet their pants when
> looking at those specs. Not just one but untimately three machines. Old
> saying: Man who says it cannot be done shall not stand in the way of man
> doing it.
"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually
right." --Henry Ford
bonus quote:
"I am looking for a lot of men who have an infinite capacity to not
know what can't be done."
--Henry Ford
--
Cheers,
James Arthur
Reply by krw...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz●June 5, 20122012-06-05
On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 07:44:02 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 10:40:28 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 07:24:46 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 15:34:51 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:39:04 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:09:00 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Am 03.06.2012 16:51, schrieb Joerg:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, Phil needs to buy a bunch of this stuff and also get used to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> 01005 SMT size if he has more such design jobs coming. You can't even
>>>>>>>>>>>> see those anymore. And absolutely positively no sneezing on the job :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I once showed the Murata 01005 capacitor kit to a customer's
>>>>>>>>>>> solder ladies. They were not amused :-)
>>>>>>>>>> I highly doubt we'll ever use them. The MEs are balking at a few 0201
>>>>>>>>>> decoupling capacitors (needed for fine-pitched BGAs). ...
>>>>>>>>> And exactly that is one of the sad, sad problems we have in the western
>>>>>>>>> world. "Oh, that's too difficult!". In Asia they usually say "Ok, let's
>>>>>>>>> see if we can get that done". If we don't push the envelope, someone
>>>>>>>>> else will. Followed by jobs going away.
>>>>>>>> Not too difficult. Not reliable enough, or at least not proven so.
>>>>>>> I have seen boards with lots of 0201 on there where the solder job was
>>>>>>> of excellent quality. From Asia. I don't think they'll have an issue
>>>>>>> with 01005.
>>>>>> It's not about being able to *build* the board. It's about testing,
>>>>>> standards, reliability, and all that stuff you keep pretending others don't
>>>>>> have to deal with.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Huh? What pretending? We simply deal with all that. Have to, because
>>>>> much of my work is in very regulated fields.
>>>> Read what I wrote again.
>>>>
>>> I never pretended anything. I know that others will have to deal with
>>> the same stuff we had to deal with. So? If they don't then they risk
>>> being left behind in technology. Which happened to a competitor of ours
>>> which then stopped being a competitor.
>>
>> Huh?
>>
>
>Whatever. I don't know what you mean with me pretending anything, so no
>need for me to read old posts.
>
>
>>>>> If we were to listen to all the balking we'd still be swinging from
>>>>> trees. My very first industry design project as an engineer in the mid
>>>>> 80's was completely SMT, huge board almost the size of a PC motherboard.
>>>>> Yes, there were discussions with the manufacturing and QC folks but then
>>>>> they rolled up the sleeves and did it. We even started our own reflow
>>>>> line because nobody in the area dared to take on that contract, for years.
>>>> Read the thread again. It's not balking, so much as there *ARE* problems that
>>>> haven't been overcome. ...
>>>
>>> Like what?
>>
>> Temperature extremes, flex, vibration, you name it.
>
>
>One shall do proper dissipation calcs, always.
Environmental. Dissipation has nothing to do with it.
>Flex and vibration are
>obviously less of a problem with smaller parts.
Not so. There's less solder surface, too.
>Else there would be more
>boardflex versions like there are for 1210 and up (because at such
>larger size that can be an issue on vehicles and aircraft).
So are smaller devices.
>> ... The specs are pretty
>> stringent and AFAIK, nothing below a 0402 is certified to work. ...
>
>
>What do you mean by "certified"? And how do you explain the presence of
>0201 parts in critical gear if your above assertion were true?
Different markets, different requirements.
>> ... We have the
>> same problems with fine-pitched BGAs. Anything less than .8mm causes much
>> grief (like daughterboards, just for the BGA, etc).
>>
>
>Absolutamente. That is why I never use BGA if there is an alternative.
>And there always was. Placing a large not flexible part onto a naturally
>flexible FR4 substrate has always been a bad idea IMHO. As evicended by
>the field failures we all know about. Game boxes, laptops, etc.
>
>But this has nothing to do with 0201 or 01005 parts.
Same, but different.
>>>> ... There are all sorts of standards that go by industry.
>>>> Other industries have standards, outside pharma and aero. Some are controlled
>>>> by customers, rather than the fed, but that doesn't mean that anything goes.
>>>
>>> In those areas it's even worse. Have you disected a cell phone lately?
>>
>> Other than some shock, call phones have an easy life.
>
>
>Constant fall on pavement, tile floors, people sitting on them,
>forgetting them on the dashboard in Arizona when it gets to 115F,
>leaving it in the car before the climb onto a glacier? Easy?
You're getting warmer.
Reply by Joerg●June 5, 20122012-06-05
krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 10:40:28 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 07:24:46 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 15:34:51 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:39:04 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:09:00 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Am 03.06.2012 16:51, schrieb Joerg:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, Phil needs to buy a bunch of this stuff and also get used to the
>>>>>>>>>>> 01005 SMT size if he has more such design jobs coming. You can't even
>>>>>>>>>>> see those anymore. And absolutely positively no sneezing on the job :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I once showed the Murata 01005 capacitor kit to a customer's
>>>>>>>>>> solder ladies. They were not amused :-)
>>>>>>>>> I highly doubt we'll ever use them. The MEs are balking at a few 0201
>>>>>>>>> decoupling capacitors (needed for fine-pitched BGAs). ...
>>>>>>>> And exactly that is one of the sad, sad problems we have in the western
>>>>>>>> world. "Oh, that's too difficult!". In Asia they usually say "Ok, let's
>>>>>>>> see if we can get that done". If we don't push the envelope, someone
>>>>>>>> else will. Followed by jobs going away.
>>>>>>> Not too difficult. Not reliable enough, or at least not proven so.
>>>>>> I have seen boards with lots of 0201 on there where the solder job was
>>>>>> of excellent quality. From Asia. I don't think they'll have an issue
>>>>>> with 01005.
>>>>> It's not about being able to *build* the board. It's about testing,
>>>>> standards, reliability, and all that stuff you keep pretending others don't
>>>>> have to deal with.
>>>>>
>>>> Huh? What pretending? We simply deal with all that. Have to, because
>>>> much of my work is in very regulated fields.
>>> Read what I wrote again.
>>>
>> I never pretended anything. I know that others will have to deal with
>> the same stuff we had to deal with. So? If they don't then they risk
>> being left behind in technology. Which happened to a competitor of ours
>> which then stopped being a competitor.
>
> Huh?
>
Whatever. I don't know what you mean with me pretending anything, so no
need for me to read old posts.
>>>> If we were to listen to all the balking we'd still be swinging from
>>>> trees. My very first industry design project as an engineer in the mid
>>>> 80's was completely SMT, huge board almost the size of a PC motherboard.
>>>> Yes, there were discussions with the manufacturing and QC folks but then
>>>> they rolled up the sleeves and did it. We even started our own reflow
>>>> line because nobody in the area dared to take on that contract, for years.
>>> Read the thread again. It's not balking, so much as there *ARE* problems that
>>> haven't been overcome. ...
>>
>> Like what?
>
> Temperature extremes, flex, vibration, you name it.
One shall do proper dissipation calcs, always. Flex and vibration are
obviously less of a problem with smaller parts. Else there would be more
boardflex versions like there are for 1210 and up (because at such
larger size that can be an issue on vehicles and aircraft).
> ... The specs are pretty
> stringent and AFAIK, nothing below a 0402 is certified to work. ...
What do you mean by "certified"? And how do you explain the presence of
0201 parts in critical gear if your above assertion were true?
> ... We have the
> same problems with fine-pitched BGAs. Anything less than .8mm causes much
> grief (like daughterboards, just for the BGA, etc).
>
Absolutamente. That is why I never use BGA if there is an alternative.
And there always was. Placing a large not flexible part onto a naturally
flexible FR4 substrate has always been a bad idea IMHO. As evicended by
the field failures we all know about. Game boxes, laptops, etc.
But this has nothing to do with 0201 or 01005 parts.
>>> ... There are all sorts of standards that go by industry.
>>> Other industries have standards, outside pharma and aero. Some are controlled
>>> by customers, rather than the fed, but that doesn't mean that anything goes.
>>
>> In those areas it's even worse. Have you disected a cell phone lately?
>
> Other than some shock, call phones have an easy life.
Constant fall on pavement, tile floors, people sitting on them,
forgetting them on the dashboard in Arizona when it gets to 115F,
leaving it in the car before the climb onto a glacier? Easy?
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by krw...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz●June 4, 20122012-06-04
On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 10:40:28 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 07:24:46 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 15:34:51 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:39:04 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:09:00 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Am 03.06.2012 16:51, schrieb Joerg:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, Phil needs to buy a bunch of this stuff and also get used to the
>>>>>>>>>> 01005 SMT size if he has more such design jobs coming. You can't even
>>>>>>>>>> see those anymore. And absolutely positively no sneezing on the job :-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I once showed the Murata 01005 capacitor kit to a customer's
>>>>>>>>> solder ladies. They were not amused :-)
>>>>>>>> I highly doubt we'll ever use them. The MEs are balking at a few 0201
>>>>>>>> decoupling capacitors (needed for fine-pitched BGAs). ...
>>>>>>> And exactly that is one of the sad, sad problems we have in the western
>>>>>>> world. "Oh, that's too difficult!". In Asia they usually say "Ok, let's
>>>>>>> see if we can get that done". If we don't push the envelope, someone
>>>>>>> else will. Followed by jobs going away.
>>>>>> Not too difficult. Not reliable enough, or at least not proven so.
>>>>> I have seen boards with lots of 0201 on there where the solder job was
>>>>> of excellent quality. From Asia. I don't think they'll have an issue
>>>>> with 01005.
>>>> It's not about being able to *build* the board. It's about testing,
>>>> standards, reliability, and all that stuff you keep pretending others don't
>>>> have to deal with.
>>>>
>>> Huh? What pretending? We simply deal with all that. Have to, because
>>> much of my work is in very regulated fields.
>>
>> Read what I wrote again.
>>
>
>I never pretended anything. I know that others will have to deal with
>the same stuff we had to deal with. So? If they don't then they risk
>being left behind in technology. Which happened to a competitor of ours
>which then stopped being a competitor.
Huh?
>>> If we were to listen to all the balking we'd still be swinging from
>>> trees. My very first industry design project as an engineer in the mid
>>> 80's was completely SMT, huge board almost the size of a PC motherboard.
>>> Yes, there were discussions with the manufacturing and QC folks but then
>>> they rolled up the sleeves and did it. We even started our own reflow
>>> line because nobody in the area dared to take on that contract, for years.
>>
>> Read the thread again. It's not balking, so much as there *ARE* problems that
>> haven't been overcome. ...
>
>
>Like what?
Temperature extremes, flex, vibration, you name it. The specs are pretty
stringent and AFAIK, nothing below a 0402 is certified to work. We have the
same problems with fine-pitched BGAs. Anything less than .8mm causes much
grief (like daughterboards, just for the BGA, etc).
>
>> ... There are all sorts of standards that go by industry.
>> Other industries have standards, outside pharma and aero. Some are controlled
>> by customers, rather than the fed, but that doesn't mean that anything goes.
>
>
>In those areas it's even worse. Have you disected a cell phone lately?
Other than some shock, call phones have an easy life.
Reply by Joerg●June 4, 20122012-06-04
krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 07:24:46 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 15:34:51 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:39:04 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:09:00 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Am 03.06.2012 16:51, schrieb Joerg:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, Phil needs to buy a bunch of this stuff and also get used to the
>>>>>>>>> 01005 SMT size if he has more such design jobs coming. You can't even
>>>>>>>>> see those anymore. And absolutely positively no sneezing on the job :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I once showed the Murata 01005 capacitor kit to a customer's
>>>>>>>> solder ladies. They were not amused :-)
>>>>>>> I highly doubt we'll ever use them. The MEs are balking at a few 0201
>>>>>>> decoupling capacitors (needed for fine-pitched BGAs). ...
>>>>>> And exactly that is one of the sad, sad problems we have in the western
>>>>>> world. "Oh, that's too difficult!". In Asia they usually say "Ok, let's
>>>>>> see if we can get that done". If we don't push the envelope, someone
>>>>>> else will. Followed by jobs going away.
>>>>> Not too difficult. Not reliable enough, or at least not proven so.
>>>> I have seen boards with lots of 0201 on there where the solder job was
>>>> of excellent quality. From Asia. I don't think they'll have an issue
>>>> with 01005.
>>> It's not about being able to *build* the board. It's about testing,
>>> standards, reliability, and all that stuff you keep pretending others don't
>>> have to deal with.
>>>
>> Huh? What pretending? We simply deal with all that. Have to, because
>> much of my work is in very regulated fields.
>
> Read what I wrote again.
>
I never pretended anything. I know that others will have to deal with
the same stuff we had to deal with. So? If they don't then they risk
being left behind in technology. Which happened to a competitor of ours
which then stopped being a competitor.
>> If we were to listen to all the balking we'd still be swinging from
>> trees. My very first industry design project as an engineer in the mid
>> 80's was completely SMT, huge board almost the size of a PC motherboard.
>> Yes, there were discussions with the manufacturing and QC folks but then
>> they rolled up the sleeves and did it. We even started our own reflow
>> line because nobody in the area dared to take on that contract, for years.
>
> Read the thread again. It's not balking, so much as there *ARE* problems that
> haven't been overcome. ...
Like what?
> ... There are all sorts of standards that go by industry.
> Other industries have standards, outside pharma and aero. Some are controlled
> by customers, rather than the fed, but that doesn't mean that anything goes.
Reply by krw...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz●June 4, 20122012-06-04
On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 07:24:46 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 15:34:51 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:39:04 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:09:00 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am 03.06.2012 16:51, schrieb Joerg:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, Phil needs to buy a bunch of this stuff and also get used to the
>>>>>>>> 01005 SMT size if he has more such design jobs coming. You can't even
>>>>>>>> see those anymore. And absolutely positively no sneezing on the job :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I once showed the Murata 01005 capacitor kit to a customer's
>>>>>>> solder ladies. They were not amused :-)
>>>>>> I highly doubt we'll ever use them. The MEs are balking at a few 0201
>>>>>> decoupling capacitors (needed for fine-pitched BGAs). ...
>>>>> And exactly that is one of the sad, sad problems we have in the western
>>>>> world. "Oh, that's too difficult!". In Asia they usually say "Ok, let's
>>>>> see if we can get that done". If we don't push the envelope, someone
>>>>> else will. Followed by jobs going away.
>>>> Not too difficult. Not reliable enough, or at least not proven so.
>>>
>>> I have seen boards with lots of 0201 on there where the solder job was
>>> of excellent quality. From Asia. I don't think they'll have an issue
>>> with 01005.
>>
>> It's not about being able to *build* the board. It's about testing,
>> standards, reliability, and all that stuff you keep pretending others don't
>> have to deal with.
>>
>
>Huh? What pretending? We simply deal with all that. Have to, because
>much of my work is in very regulated fields.
Read what I wrote again.
>If we were to listen to all the balking we'd still be swinging from
>trees. My very first industry design project as an engineer in the mid
>80's was completely SMT, huge board almost the size of a PC motherboard.
>Yes, there were discussions with the manufacturing and QC folks but then
>they rolled up the sleeves and did it. We even started our own reflow
>line because nobody in the area dared to take on that contract, for years.
Read the thread again. It's not balking, so much as there *ARE* problems that
haven't been overcome. There are all sorts of standards that go by industry.
Other industries have standards, outside pharma and aero. Some are controlled
by customers, rather than the fed, but that doesn't mean that anything goes.
Reply by Joerg●June 4, 20122012-06-04
krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 15:34:51 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:39:04 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:09:00 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 03.06.2012 16:51, schrieb Joerg:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, Phil needs to buy a bunch of this stuff and also get used to the
>>>>>>> 01005 SMT size if he has more such design jobs coming. You can't even
>>>>>>> see those anymore. And absolutely positively no sneezing on the job :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I once showed the Murata 01005 capacitor kit to a customer's
>>>>>> solder ladies. They were not amused :-)
>>>>> I highly doubt we'll ever use them. The MEs are balking at a few 0201
>>>>> decoupling capacitors (needed for fine-pitched BGAs). ...
>>>> And exactly that is one of the sad, sad problems we have in the western
>>>> world. "Oh, that's too difficult!". In Asia they usually say "Ok, let's
>>>> see if we can get that done". If we don't push the envelope, someone
>>>> else will. Followed by jobs going away.
>>> Not too difficult. Not reliable enough, or at least not proven so.
>>
>> I have seen boards with lots of 0201 on there where the solder job was
>> of excellent quality. From Asia. I don't think they'll have an issue
>> with 01005.
>
> It's not about being able to *build* the board. It's about testing,
> standards, reliability, and all that stuff you keep pretending others don't
> have to deal with.
>
Huh? What pretending? We simply deal with all that. Have to, because
much of my work is in very regulated fields.
If we were to listen to all the balking we'd still be swinging from
trees. My very first industry design project as an engineer in the mid
80's was completely SMT, huge board almost the size of a PC motherboard.
Yes, there were discussions with the manufacturing and QC folks but then
they rolled up the sleeves and did it. We even started our own reflow
line because nobody in the area dared to take on that contract, for years.
[...]
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by Bill Sloman●June 4, 20122012-06-04
On Jun 4, 6:13=A0am, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz>
wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 15:34:51 -0700, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote=
:
> >k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> >> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:39:04 -0700, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wr=
ote:
>
> >>> k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:09:00 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk...@arcor.de=
> wrote:
>
> >>>>> Am 03.06.2012 16:51, schrieb Joerg:
>
> >>>>>> Yeah, Phil needs to buy a bunch of this stuff and also get used to=
the
> >>>>>> 01005 SMT size if he has more such design jobs coming. You can't e=
ven
> >>>>>> see those anymore. And absolutely positively no sneezing on the jo=
b :-)
>
> >>>>> I once showed the Murata 01005 capacitor kit to a customer's
> >>>>> solder ladies. They were not amused :-)
> >>>> I highly doubt we'll ever use them. =A0The MEs are balking at a few =
0201
> >>>> decoupling capacitors (needed for fine-pitched BGAs). ...
>
> >>> And exactly that is one of the sad, sad problems we have in the weste=
rn
> >>> world. "Oh, that's too difficult!". In Asia they usually say "Ok, let=
's
> >>> see if we can get that done". If we don't push the envelope, someone
> >>> else will. Followed by jobs going away.
>
> >> Not too difficult. =A0Not reliable enough, or at least not proven so.
>
> >I have seen boards with lots of 0201 on there where the solder job was
> >of excellent quality. From Asia. I don't think they'll have an issue
> >with 01005.
>
> It's not about being able to *build* the board. =A0It's about testing,
> standards, reliability, and all that stuff you keep pretending others don=
> >>>> be) is 0402s. =A0That's more than enough for my eyes (and dexterity)=
, even with
> >>>> a Mantis.
>
> >>> That's ok, same here. But production folks need to get their hands
> >>> around that. Else their jobs will go away some day. At my previous
> >>> employer our MEs encountered the same attitude at the major
> >>> semiconductor equipment makers that your MEs professed: "You cannot d=
o
> >>> flip-chip bonding to 5um precision". So we built it ourselves togethe=
r
> >>> with a contract manufacturer where they didn't wet their pants when
> >>> looking at those specs. Not just one but untimately three machines. O=
ld
> >>> saying: Man who says it cannot be done shall not stand in the way of =
man
> >>> doing it.
>
> >> OTHO, just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done. =A0=
;-)
>
> >True, but if it provides an upside for the end customer then it has to
> >be done. One of our competitors found out the hard way and a few years
> >into it they threw in the towel, essentially ditching their whole
> >intravascular ultrasound business. This was HP Medical, no less.
Getting the quality control department to cope with something new
isn't the easiest part of development engineering, but it's an
unavoidable aspect of the job.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Reply by krw...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz●June 4, 20122012-06-04
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 15:34:51 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:39:04 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:09:00 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Am 03.06.2012 16:51, schrieb Joerg:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, Phil needs to buy a bunch of this stuff and also get used to the
>>>>>> 01005 SMT size if he has more such design jobs coming. You can't even
>>>>>> see those anymore. And absolutely positively no sneezing on the job :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>> I once showed the Murata 01005 capacitor kit to a customer's
>>>>> solder ladies. They were not amused :-)
>>>> I highly doubt we'll ever use them. The MEs are balking at a few 0201
>>>> decoupling capacitors (needed for fine-pitched BGAs). ...
>>>
>>> And exactly that is one of the sad, sad problems we have in the western
>>> world. "Oh, that's too difficult!". In Asia they usually say "Ok, let's
>>> see if we can get that done". If we don't push the envelope, someone
>>> else will. Followed by jobs going away.
>>
>> Not too difficult. Not reliable enough, or at least not proven so.
>
>
>I have seen boards with lots of 0201 on there where the solder job was
>of excellent quality. From Asia. I don't think they'll have an issue
>with 01005.
It's not about being able to *build* the board. It's about testing,
standards, reliability, and all that stuff you keep pretending others don't
have to deal with.
>
>>>> ... Everything (that can
>>>> be) is 0402s. That's more than enough for my eyes (and dexterity), even with
>>>> a Mantis.
>>>
>>> That's ok, same here. But production folks need to get their hands
>>> around that. Else their jobs will go away some day. At my previous
>>> employer our MEs encountered the same attitude at the major
>>> semiconductor equipment makers that your MEs professed: "You cannot do
>>> flip-chip bonding to 5um precision". So we built it ourselves together
>>> with a contract manufacturer where they didn't wet their pants when
>>> looking at those specs. Not just one but untimately three machines. Old
>>> saying: Man who says it cannot be done shall not stand in the way of man
>>> doing it.
>>
>> OTHO, just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done. ;-)
>
>
>True, but if it provides an upside for the end customer then it has to
>be done. One of our competitors found out the hard way and a few years
>into it they threw in the towel, essentially ditching their whole
>intravascular ultrasound business. This was HP Medical, no less.
Reply by Joerg●June 3, 20122012-06-03
Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Bill Sloman wrote:
>> On Jun 2, 7:48 pm, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net>
>> wrote:
>>> BillSlomanwrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jun 2, 6:16 pm, Fred Abse <excretatau...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 13:49:45 -0800, Robert Baer wrote:
>>>>>> OOPS! tried the LTC program and got the following errors:
>>>>>> Questionable use of curly braces in "symattr spiceline rser=0.005
>>>>>> lser={lcap}"
>>>>>> Error: undefined symbol in: "[lcap]"
>>>>>> Questionable use of curly braces in "symattr value {lbead}"
>>>>>> Error: undefined symbol in: "[lbead]"
>>>>>> Questionable use of curly braces in "symattr spiceline rpar={rpbead}"
>>>>>> Error: undefined symbol in: "[rpbead]"
>>>>>> Questionable use of curly braces in "symattr value {rbi}"
>>>>>> Error: undefined symbol in: "[rbi]"
>>>>>> Questionable use of curly braces in "symattr value {lbead}"
>>>>>> Error: undefined symbol in: "[lbead]"
>>>>>> Questionable use of curly braces in "symattr spiceline rpar={rpbead}"
>>>>>> Error: undefined symbol in: "[rpbead]"
>>>>>> Questionable use of curly braces in "symattr value {lbead}"
>>>>>> Error: undefined symbol in: "[lbead]"
>>>>>> Questionable use of curly braces in "symattr spiceline rpar={rpbead}"
>>>>>> Error: undefined symbol in: "[rpbead]"
>>>>>> Questionable use of curly braces in "symattr value {lbead}"
>>>>>> Error: undefined symbol in: "[lbead]"
>>>>>> Questionable use of curly braces in "symattr spiceline rpar={rpbead}"
>>>>>> Error: undefined symbol in: "[rpbead]"
>>>>>> Questionable use of curly braces in "symattr value {lbead}"
>>>>>> Error: undefined symbol in: "[lbead]"
>>>>>> Questionable use of curly braces in "symattr spiceline rpar={rpbead}"
>>>>>> Error: undefined symbol in: "[rpbead]"
>>>>>> Circuit: Version 4
>>>>>> Fatal Error: Multiple instances of "Flag"
>>>>>> Maybe one of the problems was that all of the files were in a folder
>>>>>> on another drive.
>>>>> Ran first time for me.
>>>> Lucky you. I just got a long string of error messages, suggesting that
>>>> whatever end-of-line symbol Phil uses in his longer Spice command
>>>> strings isn't recognised as such by my version of LTSpice.
>>> I took the .asc file and copied it directly to the web host using sftp.
>>> I suspect that your client mungs the line endings somehow.
>> I used Firefox to look at your website, and cut and pasted from there
>> into Notepad, which is the most innocuous of the Microsoft editors. I
>> use Notepad to open my own .asc files, and cut and paste from Notepad
>> into Firefox to transfer LTSpice .asc files into my postings here, and
>> that seems to work.
>>
>> --
>> Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
>
> Maybe just right click and download it directly.
>