"krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 15:24:59 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >Jim Thompson wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 08:55:51 -0700, Jim Thompson
> >> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 10:43:01 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> >> ><mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>Jim Thompson wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 06:08:49 -0600, John Fields
> >> >>> ?jfields@austininstruments.com? wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ?On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:22:04 +0100, Fred Bartoli ?" "? wrote:
> >> >>> ?
> >> >>> [snip]
> >> >>> ??
> >> >>> ??Try wiring something on those white protoboards then send this 1000
> >> >>> ??miles away through UPS and see if/when parts arrive... You might expect
> >> >>> ??some group delay distortion :-) IOW some jitter on parts arrival time
> >> >>> ?
> >> >>> ?---
> >> >>> ?Agreed.
> >> >>> ?
> >> >>> ?What I thought he was referring to was a circuit cobbled together on a
> >> >>> ?piece of perfboard, which can easily be cleaned up and ruggedized to
> >> >>> ?the point where it can be shipped anywhere and arrive in the same
> >> >>> ?shape it left.
> >> >>> ?
> >> >>> ?Unless, of course, it's damaged by a mule stepping on it or something
> >> >>> ?like that.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> To get that you must ship USPS ;-)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>   Not always.  My dad had ordered one of those round TV antennas.  It
> >> >>was shipped UPS.  The box arrived with tire marks and was taped back
> >> >>together.  The box was full of broken plastic & twisted metal.  Then
> >> >>they tried to claim that was the way they recieved it from the shipper.
> >> >>
> >> >>   Then there was the time they were on strike, and held about $250,000
> >> >>worth of our shipments fro several weeks while our customers raised
> >> >>hell.  After that a lot of our customers insisted on shipping by Fedex,
> >> >>or by truck.
> >> >
> >> >I avoid UPS also.
> >> >
> >> >                                        ...Jim Thompson
> >>
> >> One thing I forgot to mention... when I receive a package with
> >> exterior damage I photograph it before opening, then photograph each
> >> step of opening... never had a claim denied.
> >
> >
> >  They asked us to open it and inspect it for damage.  They changed
> >their attitude when I told them I was going to call UPS Corporate and
> >raise hell.
> 
> I bought a dust collector.  UPS (IIRC) pretty well crushed the package and
> bent a lot of the metal parts inside, including the blower housing.  A call to
> the manufacturer had new parts on the way the next day.  I had an issue with
> my cabinet saw, too, but it was a trucking firm (not UPS).  They lost the
> fence but Amazon is really good about lighting fires under people.  Using a
> credit card for such purchases is a good idea, too.


   He did.  he called the vendor who raised hell with UPS, and shipped
the replacement via USPS while they filed a claim against UPS.

   The local UPS Office had a lot of dead wood that ended up being
fired.  They refused to deliver some computer parts once, claiming that
the road didn't exist.  The package had my phone number with
instructions for the driver to call for directions, if needed.  It never
made it to the truck, becasue someone like Mathew Orman worked in the
sorting area and took it upon themselves to call me to tell me that I
had to pick it up before 4PM or they were returning it to the shipper. 
It was 3:45 and a 20+ mile trip so Itold them that if they didn't
deliver it the next day I would be on the phone to corporate and demand
that they be fired.

   The driver was quite pissed the next day, and thanked me for reading
them the riot act.  He knew where the road was, since he was there
several times a week delivering to a neighbor's business.


-- 
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 15:24:59 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>Jim Thompson wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 08:55:51 -0700, Jim Thompson
>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 10:43:01 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>> ><mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>Jim Thompson wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 06:08:49 -0600, John Fields
>> >>> ?jfields@austininstruments.com? wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> ?On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:22:04 +0100, Fred Bartoli ?" "? wrote:
>> >>> ?
>> >>> [snip]
>> >>> ??
>> >>> ??Try wiring something on those white protoboards then send this 1000
>> >>> ??miles away through UPS and see if/when parts arrive... You might expect
>> >>> ??some group delay distortion :-) IOW some jitter on parts arrival time
>> >>> ?
>> >>> ?---
>> >>> ?Agreed.
>> >>> ?
>> >>> ?What I thought he was referring to was a circuit cobbled together on a
>> >>> ?piece of perfboard, which can easily be cleaned up and ruggedized to
>> >>> ?the point where it can be shipped anywhere and arrive in the same
>> >>> ?shape it left.
>> >>> ?
>> >>> ?Unless, of course, it's damaged by a mule stepping on it or something
>> >>> ?like that.
>> >>>
>> >>> To get that you must ship USPS ;-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>   Not always.  My dad had ordered one of those round TV antennas.  It
>> >>was shipped UPS.  The box arrived with tire marks and was taped back
>> >>together.  The box was full of broken plastic & twisted metal.  Then
>> >>they tried to claim that was the way they recieved it from the shipper.
>> >>
>> >>   Then there was the time they were on strike, and held about $250,000
>> >>worth of our shipments fro several weeks while our customers raised
>> >>hell.  After that a lot of our customers insisted on shipping by Fedex,
>> >>or by truck.
>> >
>> >I avoid UPS also.
>> >
>> >                                        ...Jim Thompson
>> 
>> One thing I forgot to mention... when I receive a package with
>> exterior damage I photograph it before opening, then photograph each
>> step of opening... never had a claim denied.
>
>
>  They asked us to open it and inspect it for damage.  They changed
>their attitude when I told them I was going to call UPS Corporate and
>raise hell.

I bought a dust collector.  UPS (IIRC) pretty well crushed the package and
bent a lot of the metal parts inside, including the blower housing.  A call to
the manufacturer had new parts on the way the next day.  I had an issue with
my cabinet saw, too, but it was a trucking firm (not UPS).  They lost the
fence but Amazon is really good about lighting fires under people.  Using a
credit card for such purchases is a good idea, too.

Jim Thompson wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 08:55:51 -0700, Jim Thompson
> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 10:43:01 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> ><mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Jim Thompson wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 06:08:49 -0600, John Fields
> >>> ?jfields@austininstruments.com? wrote:
> >>>
> >>> ?On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:22:04 +0100, Fred Bartoli ?" "? wrote:
> >>> ?
> >>> [snip]
> >>> ??
> >>> ??Try wiring something on those white protoboards then send this 1000
> >>> ??miles away through UPS and see if/when parts arrive... You might expect
> >>> ??some group delay distortion :-) IOW some jitter on parts arrival time
> >>> ?
> >>> ?---
> >>> ?Agreed.
> >>> ?
> >>> ?What I thought he was referring to was a circuit cobbled together on a
> >>> ?piece of perfboard, which can easily be cleaned up and ruggedized to
> >>> ?the point where it can be shipped anywhere and arrive in the same
> >>> ?shape it left.
> >>> ?
> >>> ?Unless, of course, it's damaged by a mule stepping on it or something
> >>> ?like that.
> >>>
> >>> To get that you must ship USPS ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >>   Not always.  My dad had ordered one of those round TV antennas.  It
> >>was shipped UPS.  The box arrived with tire marks and was taped back
> >>together.  The box was full of broken plastic & twisted metal.  Then
> >>they tried to claim that was the way they recieved it from the shipper.
> >>
> >>   Then there was the time they were on strike, and held about $250,000
> >>worth of our shipments fro several weeks while our customers raised
> >>hell.  After that a lot of our customers insisted on shipping by Fedex,
> >>or by truck.
> >
> >I avoid UPS also.
> >
> >                                        ...Jim Thompson
> 
> One thing I forgot to mention... when I receive a package with
> exterior damage I photograph it before opening, then photograph each
> step of opening... never had a claim denied.


  They asked us to open it and inspect it for damage.  They changed
their attitude when I told them I was going to call UPS Corporate and
raise hell.


-- 
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 08:55:51 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 10:43:01 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
><mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>Jim Thompson wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 06:08:49 -0600, John Fields
>>> ?jfields@austininstruments.com? wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:22:04 +0100, Fred Bartoli ?" "? wrote:
>>> ?
>>> [snip]
>>> ??
>>> ??Try wiring something on those white protoboards then send this 1000
>>> ??miles away through UPS and see if/when parts arrive... You might expect
>>> ??some group delay distortion :-) IOW some jitter on parts arrival time
>>> ?
>>> ?---
>>> ?Agreed.
>>> ?
>>> ?What I thought he was referring to was a circuit cobbled together on a
>>> ?piece of perfboard, which can easily be cleaned up and ruggedized to
>>> ?the point where it can be shipped anywhere and arrive in the same
>>> ?shape it left.
>>> ?
>>> ?Unless, of course, it's damaged by a mule stepping on it or something
>>> ?like that.
>>> 
>>> To get that you must ship USPS ;-)
>>
>>
>>   Not always.  My dad had ordered one of those round TV antennas.  It
>>was shipped UPS.  The box arrived with tire marks and was taped back
>>together.  The box was full of broken plastic & twisted metal.  Then
>>they tried to claim that was the way they recieved it from the shipper.
>>
>>   Then there was the time they were on strike, and held about $250,000
>>worth of our shipments fro several weeks while our customers raised
>>hell.  After that a lot of our customers insisted on shipping by Fedex,
>>or by truck.
>
>I avoid UPS also.
>		
>                                        ...Jim Thompson

One thing I forgot to mention... when I receive a package with
exterior damage I photograph it before opening, then photograph each
step of opening... never had a claim denied.
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 10:43:01 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>Jim Thompson wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 06:08:49 -0600, John Fields
>> ?jfields@austininstruments.com? wrote:
>> 
>> ?On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:22:04 +0100, Fred Bartoli ?" "? wrote:
>> ?
>> [snip]
>> ??
>> ??Try wiring something on those white protoboards then send this 1000
>> ??miles away through UPS and see if/when parts arrive... You might expect
>> ??some group delay distortion :-) IOW some jitter on parts arrival time
>> ?
>> ?---
>> ?Agreed.
>> ?
>> ?What I thought he was referring to was a circuit cobbled together on a
>> ?piece of perfboard, which can easily be cleaned up and ruggedized to
>> ?the point where it can be shipped anywhere and arrive in the same
>> ?shape it left.
>> ?
>> ?Unless, of course, it's damaged by a mule stepping on it or something
>> ?like that.
>> 
>> To get that you must ship USPS ;-)
>
>
>   Not always.  My dad had ordered one of those round TV antennas.  It
>was shipped UPS.  The box arrived with tire marks and was taped back
>together.  The box was full of broken plastic & twisted metal.  Then
>they tried to claim that was the way they recieved it from the shipper.
>
>   Then there was the time they were on strike, and held about $250,000
>worth of our shipments fro several weeks while our customers raised
>hell.  After that a lot of our customers insisted on shipping by Fedex,
>or by truck.

I avoid UPS also.
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Jim Thompson wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 06:08:49 -0600, John Fields
> ?jfields@austininstruments.com? wrote:
> 
> ?On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:22:04 +0100, Fred Bartoli ?" "? wrote:
> ?
> [snip]
> ??
> ??Try wiring something on those white protoboards then send this 1000
> ??miles away through UPS and see if/when parts arrive... You might expect
> ??some group delay distortion :-) IOW some jitter on parts arrival time
> ?
> ?---
> ?Agreed.
> ?
> ?What I thought he was referring to was a circuit cobbled together on a
> ?piece of perfboard, which can easily be cleaned up and ruggedized to
> ?the point where it can be shipped anywhere and arrive in the same
> ?shape it left.
> ?
> ?Unless, of course, it's damaged by a mule stepping on it or something
> ?like that.
> 
> To get that you must ship USPS ;-)


   Not always.  My dad had ordered one of those round TV antennas.  It
was shipped UPS.  The box arrived with tire marks and was taped back
together.  The box was full of broken plastic & twisted metal.  Then
they tried to claim that was the way they recieved it from the shipper.

   Then there was the time they were on strike, and held about $250,000
worth of our shipments fro several weeks while our customers raised
hell.  After that a lot of our customers insisted on shipping by Fedex,
or by truck.


-- 
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 06:08:49 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:22:04 +0100, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
>
[snip]
>>
>>Try wiring something on those white protoboards then send this 1000 
>>miles away through UPS and see if/when parts arrive... You might expect 
>>some group delay distortion :-) IOW some jitter on parts arrival time
>
>---
>Agreed.
>
>What I thought he was referring to was a circuit cobbled together on a
>piece of perfboard, which can easily be cleaned up and ruggedized to
>the point where it can be shipped anywhere and arrive in the same
>shape it left.
>
>Unless, of course, it's damaged by a mule stepping on it or something
>like that.

To get that you must ship USPS ;-)
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:22:04 +0100, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:

>John Fields a &#4294967295;crit :
>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2011 02:04:19 +0100, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
>> 
>>> Tim a &#4294967295;crit :
>>>> On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 01:55:17 -0600, John Fields wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 00:56:03 -0600, Tim <tim@seemywebsite.please> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 22:36:33 -0600, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim Wescott wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyone got any mileage, manuals, rumors, etc. of the Wavetek 273
>>>>>>>> signal generator?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A customer is testing a PLL that I designed.  The PLL is designed to
>>>>>>>> go into the far sub-Hz bandwidths, and they're having trouble getting
>>>>>>>> it to lock onto the 15kHz signal from a Wavetek 273.  I've got it
>>>>>>>> running off of a crystal oscillator divided down and made into a sine
>>>>>>>> wave, and it's perking along quite happily at a bandwidth of 1/50th
>>>>>>>> Hz. They can't run it at a bandwidth below about 5Hz.
>>>>>>> What is your PLL acquisition bandwidth?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All I can find for that signal generator are places selling manuals,
>>>>>>>> and a picture of the front panel.  It has a digital readout and
>>>>>>>> appears to be synthesized -- yet it's actual performance doesn't seem
>>>>>>>> to jibe with the performance my customer is seeing.
>>>>>>> The 1e-5 is too much of accuracy expectation for the off-the-shelf MCU
>>>>>>> grade crystal; not mentionning 1e-6. You can reliably count on 1e-4.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So I'm wondering if its broken, or if it's just a multivibrator
>>>>>>>> oscillator behind a dolled-up digital panel, or what.
>>>>>>> Add a discriminator to your PLL or use a frequency-phase detector to
>>>>>>> assist the initial pull-in.
>>>>>> I'm not talking about acquisition, that works just fine (it starts with
>>>>>> a discriminator, then switches to a wide-open PI filter once the phase
>>>>>> stops hopping around, then when the phase settles in it stops down the
>>>>>> gain to whatever the preset value is).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is holding lock -- they can't get it to stay locked unless
>>>>>> the bandwidth is above one or two Hz, while mine stays locked just fine
>>>>>> on my 12.5kHz crystal derived signal.  Since this is very symptomatic of
>>>>>> the signal generator not being in good shape, I'm thinking in that
>>>>>> direction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose they could have issues with their processor crystal -- but
>>>>>> it'd have to be exceedingly sick.
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Why not lend them your generator and let then check their Wavetek
>>>>> against it?
>>>> Not a bad idea, except that it's cobbled together on a protoboard, and 
>>>> they're several hundred miles away.
>>>>
>>> Bad idea indeed!
>>> You'd have a lot of jitter on the parts' arrival time...
>> 
>> ---
>> What do you mean?
>> 
>
>Try wiring something on those white protoboards then send this 1000 
>miles away through UPS and see if/when parts arrive... You might expect 
>some group delay distortion :-) IOW some jitter on parts arrival time

---
Agreed.

What I thought he was referring to was a circuit cobbled together on a
piece of perfboard, which can easily be cleaned up and ruggedized to
the point where it can be shipped anywhere and arrive in the same
shape it left.

Unless, of course, it's damaged by a mule stepping on it or something
like that.

-- 
JF

John Fields a �crit :
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2011 02:04:19 +0100, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
> 
>> Tim a &#4294967295;crit :
>>> On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 01:55:17 -0600, John Fields wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 00:56:03 -0600, Tim <tim@seemywebsite.please> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 22:36:33 -0600, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim Wescott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone got any mileage, manuals, rumors, etc. of the Wavetek 273
>>>>>>> signal generator?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A customer is testing a PLL that I designed.  The PLL is designed to
>>>>>>> go into the far sub-Hz bandwidths, and they're having trouble getting
>>>>>>> it to lock onto the 15kHz signal from a Wavetek 273.  I've got it
>>>>>>> running off of a crystal oscillator divided down and made into a sine
>>>>>>> wave, and it's perking along quite happily at a bandwidth of 1/50th
>>>>>>> Hz. They can't run it at a bandwidth below about 5Hz.
>>>>>> What is your PLL acquisition bandwidth?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All I can find for that signal generator are places selling manuals,
>>>>>>> and a picture of the front panel.  It has a digital readout and
>>>>>>> appears to be synthesized -- yet it's actual performance doesn't seem
>>>>>>> to jibe with the performance my customer is seeing.
>>>>>> The 1e-5 is too much of accuracy expectation for the off-the-shelf MCU
>>>>>> grade crystal; not mentionning 1e-6. You can reliably count on 1e-4.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I'm wondering if its broken, or if it's just a multivibrator
>>>>>>> oscillator behind a dolled-up digital panel, or what.
>>>>>> Add a discriminator to your PLL or use a frequency-phase detector to
>>>>>> assist the initial pull-in.
>>>>> I'm not talking about acquisition, that works just fine (it starts with
>>>>> a discriminator, then switches to a wide-open PI filter once the phase
>>>>> stops hopping around, then when the phase settles in it stops down the
>>>>> gain to whatever the preset value is).
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is holding lock -- they can't get it to stay locked unless
>>>>> the bandwidth is above one or two Hz, while mine stays locked just fine
>>>>> on my 12.5kHz crystal derived signal.  Since this is very symptomatic of
>>>>> the signal generator not being in good shape, I'm thinking in that
>>>>> direction.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose they could have issues with their processor crystal -- but
>>>>> it'd have to be exceedingly sick.
>>>> ---
>>>> Why not lend them your generator and let then check their Wavetek
>>>> against it?
>>> Not a bad idea, except that it's cobbled together on a protoboard, and 
>>> they're several hundred miles away.
>>>
>> Bad idea indeed!
>> You'd have a lot of jitter on the parts' arrival time...
> 
> ---
> What do you mean?
> 

Try wiring something on those white protoboards then send this 1000 
miles away through UPS and see if/when parts arrive... You might expect 
some group delay distortion :-) IOW some jitter on parts arrival time


-- 
Thanks,
Fred.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2011 02:04:19 +0100, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:

>Tim a &#4294967295;crit :
>> On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 01:55:17 -0600, John Fields wrote:
>> 
>>> On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 00:56:03 -0600, Tim <tim@seemywebsite.please> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 22:36:33 -0600, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tim Wescott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone got any mileage, manuals, rumors, etc. of the Wavetek 273
>>>>>> signal generator?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A customer is testing a PLL that I designed.  The PLL is designed to
>>>>>> go into the far sub-Hz bandwidths, and they're having trouble getting
>>>>>> it to lock onto the 15kHz signal from a Wavetek 273.  I've got it
>>>>>> running off of a crystal oscillator divided down and made into a sine
>>>>>> wave, and it's perking along quite happily at a bandwidth of 1/50th
>>>>>> Hz. They can't run it at a bandwidth below about 5Hz.
>>>>> What is your PLL acquisition bandwidth?
>>>>>
>>>>>> All I can find for that signal generator are places selling manuals,
>>>>>> and a picture of the front panel.  It has a digital readout and
>>>>>> appears to be synthesized -- yet it's actual performance doesn't seem
>>>>>> to jibe with the performance my customer is seeing.
>>>>> The 1e-5 is too much of accuracy expectation for the off-the-shelf MCU
>>>>> grade crystal; not mentionning 1e-6. You can reliably count on 1e-4.
>>>>>
>>>>>> So I'm wondering if its broken, or if it's just a multivibrator
>>>>>> oscillator behind a dolled-up digital panel, or what.
>>>>> Add a discriminator to your PLL or use a frequency-phase detector to
>>>>> assist the initial pull-in.
>>>> I'm not talking about acquisition, that works just fine (it starts with
>>>> a discriminator, then switches to a wide-open PI filter once the phase
>>>> stops hopping around, then when the phase settles in it stops down the
>>>> gain to whatever the preset value is).
>>>>
>>>> The problem is holding lock -- they can't get it to stay locked unless
>>>> the bandwidth is above one or two Hz, while mine stays locked just fine
>>>> on my 12.5kHz crystal derived signal.  Since this is very symptomatic of
>>>> the signal generator not being in good shape, I'm thinking in that
>>>> direction.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose they could have issues with their processor crystal -- but
>>>> it'd have to be exceedingly sick.
>>> ---
>>> Why not lend them your generator and let then check their Wavetek
>>> against it?
>> 
>> Not a bad idea, except that it's cobbled together on a protoboard, and 
>> they're several hundred miles away.
>> 
>
>Bad idea indeed!
>You'd have a lot of jitter on the parts' arrival time...

---
What do you mean?

-- 
JF