On Fri, 28 May 2010 13:19:52 -0700, George Herold wrote:
> On May 28, 12:17&nbsp;pm, Joe  wrote:
>> George Herold wrote:
...
>>> SYMATTR Value 1&micro;
...
>> SYMATTR Value 1=B5
...
>>  "&micro;" (mu) saved as "=B5" [...]
>> You can manually fix the line breaks, if you see them when you post, by
>> adding a "+" at the beginning of broken off parts. &nbsp;[...]

Mike noted that "LTspice will not accept hard carriage returns in 
the middle of the attribute" so disregard that.

> 
> Thanks Joe,  (I'm still an LTspice newlywed, so forgive my blunders.)
> I'll get rid of all the 'named' caps and try again.
> 
> Does this work?
> 
> Version 4
> SHEET 1 1140 1108
...
> SYMATTR InstName C3
> SYMATTR Value 100&micro;
...

It works much better -- loads into LTspice under wine ok.
Still gets errors when Run, however, due to the &micro; (mu) 
transferring as =B5.  However, one can fix that in LTspice, 
as opposed to using an external editor again.

George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

[...]

> Thanks for all the advice Mike.  I'm not even sure that is the same
> Alum-electro that I'm using.  I didn't 'spice' this circuit till a few
> days ago.  About a year or so ago, I proto-ed it on copper clad and
> played with values till the noise was low enough.  (A bit of a pain
> since to test it I had to close it up inside a metal box.) Then it
> oscillated at certain bias currents, and I f'ed around till that went
> away.  (I'm mostly just a circuit 'hack' though I hope I'm starting to
> understand things.)
> 
> George H.  (Sorry for the Walt confusion on this thread, 'my' Walt
> knows nothing about circuits, but makes some 'killer' mustard.)

Hi George,

I kinda jumped the gun. But I love mustard, especially on Polish 
sausages. So either Walt is fine:)

I just posted a test attachment using Fairchild's model for the MPSA14. I 
assume this is converted to Base64 during transmission, then back to 
plain ascii when received. My newsreader automatically saves attachments 
to a download directory. I just checked, and sure enough the files were 
there and worked fine.

If you have a minute, see if your newsreader will recover these files 
properly and see if they will run in LTspice.

I'll give google groups time to archive the files, then see if they show 
up there.

If so, and everyone can read these files in the multitude of newsreaders 
out there, maybe this solves the problem.

And maybe it will also save zip files. That would be handy.

Thanks,

Mike

On May 28, 12:17=A0pm, Joe <j...@somewhere.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 May 2010 07:09:46 -0700, George Herold wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > Any way I'll try again posting the circuit. =A0(This is far from my
> > circuit, I found it first in Phil Hobbs' book.)
> ...[big snip]
> > SYMBOL cap -320 -320 R0
> > SYMATTR InstName C5
> > SYMATTR Value 1=B5
> > SYMATTR SpiceLine V=3D25 Irms=3D7.25 Rser=3D0.004 Lser=3D0 mfg=3D"KEMET=
"
> > pn=3D"C1206C105K3PAC" type=3D"X5R"
>
> Except for the line break which had to be fixed, this looked ok in
> the news reader, but when saved to file, displayed as
>
> SYMATTR SpiceLine V=3D3D25 Irms=3D3D7.25 Rser=3D3D0.004 Lser=3D3D0 mfg=3D=
3D"KEMET"
> pn=3D3D"C1206C105K3PAC" type=3D3D"X5R"
> SYMBOL cap -320 -320 R0
> SYMATTR InstName C5
> SYMATTR Value 1=3DB5
> SYMATTR SpiceLine V=3D3D25 Irms=3D3D7.25 Rser=3D3D0.004 Lser=3D3D0 mfg=3D=
3D"KEMET"
> pn=3D3D"C1206C105K3PAC" type=3D3D"X5R"
>
> That is, every "=3D" saved as "=3D3D" while "=B5" (mu) saved as "=3DB5", =
all
> of which required external editing (replace all) before LTspice running
> under wine on linux would properly load the file. =A0I don't know if
> the same problem will occur under MS-windows. =A0If it does, maybe it
> depends on how you copied the text into your newsreader. =A0You could fix
> the "=B5" by manually editing to "u"; see chart on page 63 of scad3.pdf.
>
> You can manually fix the line breaks, if you see them when you post,
> by adding a "+" at the beginning of broken off parts. =A0For example,
> SYMATTR SpiceLine V=3D25 Irms=3D7.25 Rser=3D0.004 Lser=3D0 mfg=3D"KEMET"
> + pn=3D"C1206C105K3PAC" type=3D"X5R"

Thanks Joe,  (I'm still an LTspice newlywed, so forgive my blunders.)
I'll get rid of all the 'named' caps and try again.

Does this work?

Version 4
SHEET 1 1140 1108
WIRE -688 -448 -768 -448
WIRE -560 -448 -608 -448
WIRE -160 -448 -560 -448
WIRE -128 -448 -160 -448
WIRE -128 -400 -128 -448
WIRE -560 -352 -560 -368
WIRE -496 -352 -560 -352
WIRE -384 -352 -416 -352
WIRE -272 -352 -384 -352
WIRE -768 -320 -768 -448
WIRE -560 -320 -560 -352
WIRE -384 -320 -384 -352
WIRE -128 -288 -128 -304
WIRE -48 -288 -128 -288
WIRE 16 -288 -48 -288
WIRE -128 -256 -128 -288
WIRE -48 -256 -48 -288
WIRE -768 -224 -768 -240
WIRE -560 -224 -560 -256
WIRE -528 -224 -560 -224
WIRE -384 -224 -384 -256
WIRE -384 -224 -528 -224
WIRE -528 -208 -528 -224
WIRE -128 -160 -128 -176
WIRE -48 -160 -48 -192
FLAG -528 -208 0
FLAG -768 -224 0
FLAG -128 -160 0
FLAG -160 -448 Vin
FLAG 16 -288 Vout
FLAG -48 -160 0
SYMBOL npn -192 -400 R0
SYMATTR InstName Q1
SYMATTR Value 2N4401
SYMBOL voltage -768 -336 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 15
SYMBOL voltage -592 -448 R90
WINDOW 0 49 39 VRight 0
WINDOW 123 -48 40 VRight 0
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName V3
SYMATTR Value2 AC 1
SYMATTR Value ""
SYMBOL res -576 -464 R0
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 1k
SYMBOL res -400 -368 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 0
WINDOW 3 42 49 VTop 0
SYMATTR InstName R2
SYMATTR Value 1k
SYMBOL res -176 -368 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 0
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 0
SYMATTR InstName R3
SYMATTR Value 10
SYMBOL res -144 -272 R0
SYMATTR InstName R4
SYMATTR Value 1k
SYMBOL cap -576 -320 R0
SYMATTR InstName C1
SYMATTR Value 100=B5
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=3D0.13
SYMBOL cap -400 -320 R0
SYMATTR InstName C2
SYMATTR Value 100=B5
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=3D0.13
SYMBOL cap -64 -256 R0
SYMATTR InstName C3
SYMATTR Value 100=B5
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=3D0.13
TEXT -216 -536 Left 0 ;Cap multiplier (Hobbs fillter)
TEXT -224 -504 Left 0 !.ac oct 100 1 1e7

On May 28, 12:02=A0pm, Mike <s...@me.not> wrote:
> George Herold <gher...@teachspin.com> wrote:
> > That seemed to work OK, I got some error messages about the cap names,
> > but I clikced on ignore and it loaded.
> > George H
>
> Hi George,
>
> The error messages are from line wrap on the capacitor parameters and
> strange newsreader encodings.
>
> When you use LTspice to select a manufacturer's capacitor, it adds all
> kinds of crap to the entry. For example, C5 looks like the following. (I
> added hard carriage returns to kill the newsreader wrap):
>
> SYMATTR InstName C5
> SYMATTR Value 1=B5
> SYMATTR SpiceLine V=3D25 Irms=3D7.25 Rser=3D0.004 Lser=3D0
> mfg=3D"KEMET" pn=3D"C1206C105K3PAC" type=3D"X5R"
>
> In addition, your newsreader editor encodes some of the symbols to a
> different encoding. For example, the equals sign, "=3D", becomes "=3D3D",=
 and
> the micro sign becomes "=3DB5". So a 1uF cap comes out as 1=3DB5 in the a=
scii
> file.
>
> I can't tell from the header what kind of newsreader you are using, but
> if you want to post ascii files to the newsgroup, I'd suggest getting
> XNEWS. It is free, and it won't mess up your posts with strange codings.
>
> I'd also suggest when you use a cap in LTspice, don't bother trying to
> get one with a vendor's model. Just find out what the typical series
> resistance and inductance values are for the type of cap you are using,
> and enter those into the standard cap symbol. Here is what it looks like
> in the ASC file:
>
> SYMBOL cap -64 -256 R0
> SYMATTR InstName C3
> SYMATTR Value 100=B5f
> SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=3D20m Lser=3D2.5nh
>
> See? A lot simpler, and no line wrap or strange encodings.
>
> Finally, after evaluating the performance of LTspice as a noise filter in
> the emitter follower configuration, I would not recommend using LTspice.
> The results are unpredictable and do not represent the real world.
>
> I did some tests in MicroCap 8 and 9. They do a better job, but are still
> not close to actual data. So for these types of analysis, I'd recommend
> building the circuit and actually measuring the results.
>
> That's what counts, in the final analysis.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike

Thanks for all the advice Mike.  I'm not even sure that is the same
Alum-electro that I'm using.  I didn't 'spice' this circuit till a few
days ago.  About a year or so ago, I proto-ed it on copper clad and
played with values till the noise was low enough.  (A bit of a pain
since to test it I had to close it up inside a metal box.) Then it
oscillated at certain bias currents, and I f'ed around till that went
away.  (I'm mostly just a circuit 'hack' though I hope I'm starting to
understand things.)

George H.  (Sorry for the Walt confusion on this thread, 'my' Walt
knows nothing about circuits, but makes some 'killer' mustard.)

Joe <joe@somewhere.org> wrote:

[...]

> You can manually fix the line breaks, if you see them when you post, 
> by adding a "+" at the beginning of broken off parts.  For example,
> SYMATTR SpiceLine V=25 Irms=7.25 Rser=0.004 Lser=0 mfg="KEMET"
> + pn="C1206C105K3PAC" type="X5R"

I tried that. LTspice will not accept hard carriage returns in the middle 
of the attribute. It generates an error while loading. If you press 
"Ignore", it omits the rest of the line.

This gives very strange component attributes:)

I see only two solutions. Avoid long lines, or archive to a zip file and 
post it somewhere. abse is convenient, but not permanent. So if someone 
wants to review your work a decade from now, they will be disappointed.

Another alternative might be to encode the file in Base64 and append it 
to the newsgroup posting. That means everyone would have to download a 
Base64 decoder. It would be instantly fatal.

So what we need is a way to store binary files that will persist and are 
easy to decode, or find a way to allow long lines in LTspice. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Mike

On Fri, 28 May 2010 07:09:46 -0700, George Herold wrote:
...
> Any way I'll try again posting the circuit.  (This is far from my
> circuit, I found it first in Phil Hobbs' book.) 
...[big snip]
> SYMBOL cap -320 -320 R0
> SYMATTR InstName C5
> SYMATTR Value 1&micro;
> SYMATTR SpiceLine V=25 Irms=7.25 Rser=0.004 Lser=0 mfg="KEMET"
> pn="C1206C105K3PAC" type="X5R"

Except for the line break which had to be fixed, this looked ok in 
the news reader, but when saved to file, displayed as

SYMATTR SpiceLine V=3D25 Irms=3D7.25 Rser=3D0.004 Lser=3D0 mfg=3D"KEMET"
pn=3D"C1206C105K3PAC" type=3D"X5R"
SYMBOL cap -320 -320 R0
SYMATTR InstName C5
SYMATTR Value 1=B5
SYMATTR SpiceLine V=3D25 Irms=3D7.25 Rser=3D0.004 Lser=3D0 mfg=3D"KEMET"
pn=3D"C1206C105K3PAC" type=3D"X5R"

That is, every "=" saved as "=3D" while "&micro;" (mu) saved as "=B5", all 
of which required external editing (replace all) before LTspice running
under wine on linux would properly load the file.  I don't know if
the same problem will occur under MS-windows.  If it does, maybe it
depends on how you copied the text into your newsreader.  You could fix 
the "&micro;" by manually editing to "u"; see chart on page 63 of scad3.pdf.

You can manually fix the line breaks, if you see them when you post, 
by adding a "+" at the beginning of broken off parts.  For example,
SYMATTR SpiceLine V=25 Irms=7.25 Rser=0.004 Lser=0 mfg="KEMET"
+ pn="C1206C105K3PAC" type="X5R"

George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

> That seemed to work OK, I got some error messages about the cap names,
> but I clikced on ignore and it loaded.

> George H

Hi George,

The error messages are from line wrap on the capacitor parameters and 
strange newsreader encodings.

When you use LTspice to select a manufacturer's capacitor, it adds all 
kinds of crap to the entry. For example, C5 looks like the following. (I 
added hard carriage returns to kill the newsreader wrap):

SYMATTR InstName C5
SYMATTR Value 1&#4294967295;
SYMATTR SpiceLine V=25 Irms=7.25 Rser=0.004 Lser=0 
mfg="KEMET" pn="C1206C105K3PAC" type="X5R" 

In addition, your newsreader editor encodes some of the symbols to a 
different encoding. For example, the equals sign, "=", becomes "=3D", and 
the micro sign becomes "=B5". So a 1uF cap comes out as 1=B5 in the ascii 
file.

I can't tell from the header what kind of newsreader you are using, but 
if you want to post ascii files to the newsgroup, I'd suggest getting 
XNEWS. It is free, and it won't mess up your posts with strange codings.

I'd also suggest when you use a cap in LTspice, don't bother trying to 
get one with a vendor's model. Just find out what the typical series 
resistance and inductance values are for the type of cap you are using, 
and enter those into the standard cap symbol. Here is what it looks like 
in the ASC file:

SYMBOL cap -64 -256 R0
SYMATTR InstName C3
SYMATTR Value 100&#4294967295;f
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=20m Lser=2.5nh

See? A lot simpler, and no line wrap or strange encodings.

Finally, after evaluating the performance of LTspice as a noise filter in 
the emitter follower configuration, I would not recommend using LTspice. 
The results are unpredictable and do not represent the real world.

I did some tests in MicroCap 8 and 9. They do a better job, but are still 
not close to actual data. So for these types of analysis, I'd recommend 
building the circuit and actually measuring the results.

That's what counts, in the final analysis.

Regards,

Mike

On May 26, 10:12=A0pm, Mike <s...@me.not> wrote:
> dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> =A0 Here's Walt's article:
>
> >> =A0http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Build_Ultra_Low_Noise_Voltage_Reference.pd=
f
>
> > That's it! =A0Thanks. =A0I found in on my computer in a weird scan form=
at,
> > and was starting to ASCII it for the group...
>
> > Don't you love that bootstrap for the electrolytics? =A0That's slick.
>
> > One thing I bet Walt didn't have--50mV of switcher ripple.

>
> Yes, I thought it was pretty neat. As far as switcher ripple, the article
> was written in 1993. The PC had been out for about a decade, and the
> switching noise was probably a lot worse than it is now.

Yeah, but I doubt very much Walt fed that reference dirty.

We knew better.

Way back, Analog Devices said switchers plus 12+ bit SAR A/Ds didn't
mix, but I did all the time, carefully, with no trouble.

--
Cheers,
James Arthur

On May 26, 8:42=A0pm, Mike <s...@me.not> wrote:
> dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > 20dB sounds about right. =A0The advantages of this approach are low
> > drop- out voltage and superior low-frequency noise cancellation
> > (compared to practical passive equivalents).
> > A big part of the dynamic limitation is the f.f. network rolling off.
> > If you change C1 to 100uF, and tack 100uF on the output to cover the
> > high-end, overall performance is much improved--nearly as good as a
> > passive version using 10,000uF caps, and a lot smaller.
>
> I was playing with that. Still quite fiddly. If you don't get the balance
> exactly right you end up with two attenuation plateaus. It would be
> difficult to tell when it is adjusted correctly and to keep it there. See
> the asc file for example.
>
> > For super massive attenuation of input noise and ripple, other
> > approaches are better.
>
> Any examples or links?

I meant filter-type approaches, like the C-mult.  Cancellation
approaches are inherently limited by the accuracy--gain and dynamic--
of the canceller function.  Filter-type methods have no such limit.

--
Cheers,
James Arthur