Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid=NL_planet

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.


Bret Cahill

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:31:56 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<B...@aol.com> wrote:

>Even the prototype is only $100K.
>
>http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid=NL_planet
>
>Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.
>
>The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
>the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
>good idea.
>
>
>Bret Cahill

Install one on your car and report back.

John

> >Even the prototype is only $100K.
>
> >http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid...
>
> >Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.
>
> >The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
> >the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
> >good idea.
>
> >Bret Cahill
>
> Install one on your car and report back.

I'm in love with the idea.

It will be the most cost effective way to commute in a couple years
yet you'll still be able to haul your boat over the mountains.

The flexibility of adding anyone's new batteries as they become
commercially available is another advantage over conventional hybrids.

A big alternator and an electric ac compressor would be another plus.
Maybe they could even tweak conventional [large rpm range] engines to
run at an optimum speed when recharging.

You're sitting in traffic going nowhere.  It's 115 F outside but the
ac is on and the main engine isn't running, at least not for a long
period of time.


Bret Cahill

"Bret Cahill" <B...@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:9...@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> Even the prototype is only $100K.
>
> http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid=NL_planet
>
> Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.
>
> The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
> the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
> good idea.

I came up with a similar idea a few years ago.

http://www.smart.net/~pstech/SHAMPAC.htm

It was too big a project for me alone and I had other priorities. There was 
also the problem of making an electric motor that had sufficient torque and 
speed for direct drive requirements, and I had planned to use a reduction 
chain drive, but that added some mechanical engineering challenges. But I 
found wheel hub motors available and in-use. And I found another website 
that described how to replace the alternator with a larger motor/generator 
which could be used to provide additional power from a battery bank and 
also be used for regenerative braking. But that was not very efficient 
because there was no easy way to unload the ICE to run on electric power 
alone.

I recently saw the movie "End of Suburbia" http://www.endofsuburbia.com/ 
which gives a lot of insight into how we in the US got into the situation 
we are now in, and the ramifications of "Peak Oil", which is where we are 
now or will be in a few years. Cheap energy fueled the flight to the 
suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawling 
individual houses for small families and individuals. Auto makers and oil 
companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular. But 
there is a finite amount of oil in the ground, and even though we are 
unlikely to "run out" suddenly like draining a gas tank, it will become 
increasingly costly to extract, and price will rise exponentially as demand 
continues to increase, until most people simply will not have the money to 
afford it.

The economy relies on increased growth which is untenable globally, so we 
will need to adapt to an economy based on sustainable moderation and 
reduction of spending. Our economy as presently configured is doomed 
because it depends on continued sales of items that are based on cheap 
energy, materials, transportation, and labor. Much of the economy is about 
trade in items that are not essential and based on rapid obsolescence to be 
discarded and replaced. But we may very well. in our lifetimes, see a point 
where it will become difficult for most people to afford the essential 
food, clothing, shelter, and heating that are now taken for granted. We are 
seeing the start of that with our present recession, and it's not going to 
be fixed by bailing out companies that based their profits on a fatally 
flawed concept of endless cheap resources. We can't spend our way out of 
this. The retail economy cannot be based on huge expenditures for "toys", 
including consumer electronics and sports cars and SUVs.

The movie can be viewed in its entirety on You-Tube:
http://www.endofsuburbia.com/previews.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3uvzcY2Xug

Paul 

> > Even the prototype is only $100K.
>
> > http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid...
>
> > Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.
>
> > The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
> > the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
> > good idea.
>
> I came up with a similar idea a few years ago.
>
> http://www.smart.net/~pstech/SHAMPAC.htm

It's still desirable to reduce the unsprung weight.  You should have
applied for a patent.

> It was too big a project for me alone and I had other priorities. There was
> also the problem of making an electric motor that had sufficient torque and
> speed for direct drive requirements, and I had planned to use a reduction
> chain drive, but that added some mechanical engineering challenges. But I
> found wheel hub motors available and in-use. And I found another website
> that described how to replace the alternator with a larger motor/generator
> which could be used to provide additional power from a battery bank and
> also be used for regenerative braking. But that was not very efficient
> because there was no easy way to unload the ICE to run on electric power
> alone.

> I recently saw the movie "End of Suburbia"http://www.endofsuburbia.com/
> which gives a lot of insight into how we in the US got into the situation
> we are now in, and the ramifications of "Peak Oil", which is where we are
> now or will be in a few years. Cheap energy fueled the flight to the
> suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawling
> individual houses for small families and individuals. Auto makers and oil
> companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular. But
> there is a finite amount of oil in the ground, and even though we are
> unlikely to "run out" suddenly like draining a gas tank, it will become
> increasingly costly to extract, and price will rise exponentially as demand
> continues to increase, until most people simply will not have the money to
> afford it.
>
> The economy relies on increased growth which is untenable globally, so we
> will need to adapt to an economy based on sustainable moderation and
> reduction of spending. Our economy as presently configured is doomed
> because it depends on continued sales of items that are based on cheap
> energy, materials, transportation, and labor. Much of the economy is about
> trade in items that are not essential and based on rapid obsolescence to be
> discarded and replaced. But we may very well. in our lifetimes, see a point
> where it will become difficult for most people to afford the essential
> food, clothing, shelter, and heating that are now taken for granted. We are
> seeing the start of that with our present recession, and it's not going to
> be fixed by bailing out companies that based their profits on a fatally
> flawed concept of endless cheap resources. We can't spend our way out of
> this. The retail economy cannot be based on huge expenditures for "toys",
> including consumer electronics and sports cars and SUVs.
>
> The movie can be viewed in its entirety on
You-Tube:http://www.endofsuburbia.com/previews.htmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3uvzcY2Xug

Nissan is looking at roadbed electrification, probably induction, but
even with that a lot of people are going to have to relocate to
cities.


Bret Cahill

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:57:09 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<B...@peoplepc.com> wrote:

>> >Even the prototype is only $100K.
>>
>> >http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid...
>>
>> >Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.
>>
>> >The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
>> >the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
>> >good idea.
>>
>> >Bret Cahill
>>
>> Install one on your car and report back.
>
>I'm in love with the idea.

I wonder how he plans to have the controls (gas pedal, brakes, engine
throttle, tranny, abs, engine control computer) interact with the new
wheel motors. Regen braking will get interesting. Or what it might do
the existing warranty and regulatory compliance certs.

Sounds like a huge bag-o-worms. Let's check back in a few years. Odds
are it will be dead and gone, as 99.9% of such ideas are.

Hybrids mainly get good mileage not because they have good drive
trains, but because they are ugly and aerodynamic. They do pay a big
price in battery weight.

>
>It will be the most cost effective way to commute in a couple years
>yet you'll still be able to haul your boat over the mountains.
>
>The flexibility of adding anyone's new batteries as they become
>commercially available is another advantage over conventional hybrids.
>
>A big alternator and an electric ac compressor would be another plus.
>Maybe they could even tweak conventional [large rpm range] engines to
>run at an optimum speed when recharging.
>
>You're sitting in traffic going nowhere.  It's 115 F outside but the
>ac is on and the main engine isn't running, at least not for a long
>period of time.

I wonder about the economics of having two gas engines, the main one
and a much smaller one for accessories and low-speed cruising.

Batteries are terrible things.

John

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:12:39 -0500, "Paul E. Schoen"
<p...@peschoen.com> wrote:

>
>"Bret Cahill" <B...@aol.com> wrote in message 
>news:9...@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>> Even the prototype is only $100K.
>>
>> http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid=NL_planet
>>
>> Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.
>>
>> The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
>> the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
>> good idea.
>
>I came up with a similar idea a few years ago.
>
>http://www.smart.net/~pstech/SHAMPAC.htm
>
>It was too big a project for me alone and I had other priorities. There was 
>also the problem of making an electric motor that had sufficient torque and 
>speed for direct drive requirements, and I had planned to use a reduction 
>chain drive, but that added some mechanical engineering challenges. But I 
>found wheel hub motors available and in-use. And I found another website 
>that described how to replace the alternator with a larger motor/generator 
>which could be used to provide additional power from a battery bank and 
>also be used for regenerative braking. But that was not very efficient 
>because there was no easy way to unload the ICE to run on electric power 
>alone.
>
>I recently saw the movie "End of Suburbia" http://www.endofsuburbia.com/ 
>which gives a lot of insight into how we in the US got into the situation 
>we are now in, and the ramifications of "Peak Oil", which is where we are 
>now or will be in a few years.

Peak oil is always a few years ahead.

 Cheap energy fueled the flight to the 
>suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawling 
>individual houses for small families and individuals.

Cheap oil changed a predominantly rural, farming society into a
primarily urban one.


 Auto makers and oil 
>companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular.

Of course. In the process they made us far, far more efficient and
prosperous and healthy than we had been.

 But 
>there is a finite amount of oil in the ground, and even though we are 
>unlikely to "run out" suddenly like draining a gas tank, it will become 
>increasingly costly to extract, and price will rise exponentially as demand 
>continues to increase, until most people simply will not have the money to 
>afford it.

They will buy less as the price increases. This will happen slowly,
and people will adapt.

>
>The economy relies on increased growth which is untenable globally, so we 
>will need to adapt to an economy based on sustainable moderation and 
>reduction of spending. Our economy as presently configured is doomed 
>because it depends on continued sales of items that are based on cheap 
>energy, materials, transportation, and labor. Much of the economy is about 
>trade in items that are not essential and based on rapid obsolescence to be 
>discarded and replaced. But we may very well. in our lifetimes, see a point 
>where it will become difficult for most people to afford the essential 
>food, clothing, shelter, and heating that are now taken for granted.

Food and clothing in the USA are incredibly cheap; go to a Wal-Mart
and see. Houses are available in Detroit for $1. 

John

On Nov 10, 10:31=A0am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:
> Even the prototype is only $100K.
>
> http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=3D218400113&cid..=
.
>
> Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.
>
> The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
> the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
> good idea.
>
> Bret Cahill

=95=95 It is a stupid idea suitable only for men who
    have money to burn and time to waste.

=96=96=A0=A0=96=96
    Political correctness is destroying Europe.

   America will be the next down the PC tube
   greased by academic idiots like Scott Erb,
   Noam Chumpsky, and Ward Churchill, and
   Slick Willy & Hilly, Algore & Pelosi, and
   now Barak Hussein Muhammad Obama, too.

On 2009-11-13, l...@gmail.com <l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 10, 10:31?am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Even the prototype is only $100K.
>>
>> http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid...
>>
>> Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.
>>
>> The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
>> the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
>> good idea.

"What makes our approach different is we don't need to modify anything
in existing vehicles to turn them into a hybrid," said Perry. "We
install the motor in the space between the brake mechanism and the hub
without any other modifications." 

I wish the image had the resolution to be readable, but that system
looks like it would push the wheels out (by going between the wheel
and the brake) and disturb the suspension geometry that would require
other changes. 

The car would not drive well with all the battery weight and changed
suspension geometry without numerous other changes. 
 
If there is something that hangs on the inboard side it might work by
making FWD cars be RWD cars in electric mode, but it would interfere
with drive shafts in the front on FWD cars and the rear axle or drive
shafts on RWD cars. Front hubs or spindles on RWD cars won't accept
something hanging inside the brake very well in most cases. 

On Nov 12, 10:41=A0pm, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> .wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:12:39 -0500, "Paul E. Schoen"


> Peak oil is always a few years ahead.

=95=95 "Peak Oil" at the present time, has evolved
    from a production modeling resource into
    a marketing scam.

    It worked quite well in 1956 to accurately
    predict that United States oil production
    would peak between 1965 and 1970. But
    when Hubbert turned to foreign sources
    he lost his way not understanding the way
    Arabs and Russians do business,

    Unquestionably, Peak Oil's models were
    responsible for the surge in prices for crude in
    the futures markets. Added to that the API's
    reluctance to accept the concept of "abiotic oil"
    allowed the Sa'uds and Russians to conceal
    their increased resources by drilling their old
    unproductive holes deeper.

> =A0Cheap energy fueled the flight to the
> >suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawli=
ng
> >individual houses for small families and individuals.
>
> Cheap oil changed a predominantly rural, farming society into a
> primarily urban one.
>
> =A0Auto makers and oil
> >companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular.
>
> Of course. In the process they made us far, far more efficient and
> prosperous and healthy than we had been.
>
> =A0But
> >there is a finite amount of oil in the ground,

=95=95 Bullshit!!!! There is ONE well in the south
    Atlantic (still under development) that has
    reserves sufficient to supply USA with all
    its' needs for centuries.

    In neighbouring fields, Exxon, BP, China,
    Saudi Arabia, etc, are all drilling 10 miles
    below the surface.

    Want to know more Google for "Tupi",
    Petrobras, Sustainable oil, "Deep Hot
    Biosphere" ...

 and even though we are
> >unlikely to "run out" suddenly like draining a gas tank, it will become
> >increasingly costly to extract, and price will rise exponentially as dem=
and
> >continues to increase, until most people simply will not have the money =
to
> >afford it.

=95=95 BULLSHIT!!
> They will buy less as the price increases. This will happen slowly,
> and people will adapt.