Author: Green Xenon [Radium]Date: 01:15 08-04-08
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Hi:
Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
using any form of sampling?
If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
audio chip?
Thanks,
Radium
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Author: Green Xenon [Radium]Date: 01:39 08-04-08
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Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
> using any form of sampling?
>
> If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
> audio chip?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium
Also can an purely-analog non-sampling analog chip store in parallel?
This is purely-analog parallel RAM [opposite of serial RAM chip]. Is
this possible?
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Author: EeyoreDate: 01:54 08-04-08
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"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
> using any form of sampling?
NO
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Author: Michael R. KestiDate: 01:58 08-04-08
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"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:
>Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
>using any form of sampling?
I generally avoid saying things are impossible but it seems nobody has
devices a a way to do what you here propose.
>If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
>audio chip?
Cassettes don't require sampling because audio's electrical wave forms
are converted to magnetism imprinted on iron oxide. In the case of the
phonograph record electrical wave forms are converted to mechanical
variations of a spiral groove. In both cases, the signal is converted
to media that are capable of persistent storage and time is represented
as a length or distance along the media.
In the case of a silicon die (a chip) there is no mechanism for persistent
storage of voltage nor is there much in the way of distance along which
to store the voltage if there were such a mechanism.
The answer, it seems, is that physics just doesn't provide a mechanism
that can be used to provide direct storage of analog audio on solid state
media.
--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mrkesti at hotmail dot com | - The Who, Bargain
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Author: Mr.TDate: 02:00 08-04-08
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"Green Xenon [Radium]" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:47fb04fe$0$24104$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> > Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
> > using any form of sampling?
> >
> > If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
> > audio chip?
> >
> Also can an purely-analog non-sampling analog chip store in parallel?
> This is purely-analog parallel RAM [opposite of serial RAM chip]. Is
> this possible?
> Radium
Radium, proof that brain activity is not necessary to sustain life.
MrT.
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Author: Green Xenon [Radium]Date: 02:11 08-04-08
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Michael R. Kesti wrote:
> "Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:
>
>> Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
>> using any form of sampling?
>
> I generally avoid saying things are impossible but it seems nobody has
> devices a a way to do what you here propose.
>
>> If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
>> audio chip?
>
> Cassettes don't require sampling because audio's electrical wave forms
> are converted to magnetism imprinted on iron oxide. In the case of the
> phonograph record electrical wave forms are converted to mechanical
> variations of a spiral groove. In both cases, the signal is converted
> to media that are capable of persistent storage and time is represented
> as a length or distance along the media.
>
> In the case of a silicon die (a chip) there is no mechanism for persistent
> storage of voltage nor is there much in the way of distance along which
> to store the voltage if there were such a mechanism.
>
> The answer, it seems, is that physics just doesn't provide a mechanism
> that can be used to provide direct storage of analog audio on solid state
> media.
>
Can analog audio chips [that obviously *do* use sampling] store the
information in parallel?
This is parallel analog RAM and is the opposite of serial RAM shown below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory#Serial_flash
Is this parallel storage of analog RAM possible or do analog signals
always have to be serial? Cassettes and phonos are serial.
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Author: Richard CrowleyDate: 02:51 08-04-08
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"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote ...
> Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
> using any form of sampling?
No.
Chips handle discrete pieces of information (aka. "bits").
> If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
> audio chip?
Because an audio tape (and a phonograph disc, and an
optical track on a film and an old-fashioned telephone)
are all analog, continuous-signal devices.
There were chips called "bucket-brigade" which would
store analog signals (typically low-quality audio) in a semi-
analog fashion. But the audio was "sampled" at a regular
interval and then the samples were shifted into the analog
"buckets".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_Brigade_Device
Higher-density RAM (typically Flash, etc.) uses a form of
this where they store more than one bit of information per
cell. For example, by distinguishing between four different
levels of charge, they can store two binary bits of information
in a single cell, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_ram#Principles_of_operation
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Author: Mr.TDate: 03:00 08-04-08
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"Michael R. Kesti" <michaelkesti@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:47FB0977.E74491DF@nospam.net...
> "Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:
>
> >Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
> >using any form of sampling?
>
> I generally avoid saying things are impossible but it seems nobody has
> devices a a way to do what you here propose.
>
> >If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
> >audio chip?
>
>
> In the case of a silicon die (a chip) there is no mechanism for persistent
> storage of voltage nor is there much in the way of distance along which
> to store the voltage if there were such a mechanism.
Ah but he never used the word "persistant", nor mention size contraints.
A "chip" can mean anything, including potato ones :-)
Analog delay lines do exist.
> The answer, it seems, is that physics just doesn't provide a mechanism
> that can be used to provide direct storage of analog audio on solid state
> media.
Nor did Radium use the words "solid state media" :-)
You did take his bait though :-(
MrT..
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Author: LABDate: 03:25 08-04-08
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Author: Richard CrowleyDate: 03:40 08-04-08
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"LAB" wrote ...
> An analog Hard Disk? :-)
Hardly the "chip" that Radium was asking about.
But if you could get the head to move linearly
across the platter (vs. in concentric "cylinders"
as we use for data storage) then it would be the
magnetic equivalent of a spiral phonograph disk.
The old original Ampex HS-100 disc recorder
was the video equivalent of that concept. It was
the original gadget that allowed "instant replay"
for sports shows, etc.
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Author: Stephen J. RushDate: 04:32 08-04-08
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On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 16:51:34 +1000, Mr.T wrote:
> Radium, proof that brain activity is not necessary to sustain life.
Actually, he's a clever little troll. His output looks reasonable on
first glance, enough so to draw a big response from people who don't
realize that he's just jacking off.
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Author: Gareth MagennisDate: 07:05 08-04-08
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"Green Xenon [Radium]" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:47faff63$0$24124$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Hi:
>
> Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
> using any form of sampling?
>
What is a "chip" and how does it work? Try that in Wikipedia and no doubt
you will find your answer. Future advances in technology may be able to do
what you are thinking of, but they wouldn't be "analogue chips" as we
currently define them, would they.
Gareth.
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Author: Bob MastaDate: 08:38 08-04-08
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On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 22:15:15 -0700, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
<glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:
>Hi:
>
>Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
>using any form of sampling?
>
>If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
>audio chip?
Actually, that audio cassette *does* use sampling. One sample
interval is the width of a magnetic domain on the tape, at the rate it
passes by the head gap. Each domain can hold only one value
(amount of magnetization) and has a finite length, so the data is
quantized. The difference with purely-digital methods is that analog
tape has many domains passing under the gap at any point in time, with
random alignments, so their individual samples are summed together.
This gives the illusion of a continuous response.
Consider a conceptual system with domains that completely fill the
head gap length. The domains would be in a neat line on the tape, so
they pass the head one by one. Each domain would effectively be one
sample, and the recording would clearly be quantized. (However, if
the domain transitions are narrow relative to the gap width, there
would be some sample-to-sample smoothing as the head would read parts
of two domains during the transition. Still a sampled system.)
Best regards,
Bob Masta
DAQARTA v3.50
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, FREE Signal Generator
Science with your sound card!
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Author: PjDate: 09:20 08-04-08
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On Apr 8, 12:15=A0am, "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluceg...@excite.com>
wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
> using any form of sampling?
>
> If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
> audio chip?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium
Hey Radium,
Try the BRAIN. Works good there.
Take a couple "chip" out of your memory.
Pj
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Author: EeyoreDate: 09:25 08-04-08
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Bob Masta wrote:
> "Green Xenon [Radium]" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> >Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
> >using any form of sampling?
> >
> >If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
> >audio chip?
>
> Actually, that audio cassette *does* use sampling. One sample
> interval is the width of a magnetic domain on the tape, at the rate it
> passes by the head gap.
Ah, you beat me to it.
Graham
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Author: google@woodall.me.ukDate: 09:41 08-04-08
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On Apr 8, 6:54 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> "Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:
> > Hi:
>
> > Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
> > using any form of sampling?
>
> NO
Depends for how long.
Wikipedia gives speed of sound in silicon (thin rod) as 8433 m/s.
So you ought to be able to store a few microseconds of sound in a
resonably sized crystal for a very short period - sort of dynamic RAM
for sound :-)
(The noise added when you try and "refresh" will drown out any signal
in a very short space of time although I've got no idea how many
"refreshes" might be possible before the noise drowns out the signal)
Tim.
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Author: Arny KruegerDate: 09:44 08-04-08
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"Pj" <frysning@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:56e1b36d-09f3-4c22-af01-57644ddb023a@l28g2000prd.googlegroups.com
> On Apr 8, 12:15 am, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
> <gluceg...@excite.com> wrote:
>> Hi:
>>
>> Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores
>> audio without using any form of sampling?
>>
>> If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why
>> would an analog audio chip?
>
> Try the BRAIN. Works good there.
> Take a couple "chip" out of your memory.
Begs the question how do we remember sounds?
I'm thinking that I remember music as a sequence of notes (samples), and
speech as a sequence of either words or phonemes. In all cases, I remember a
sequence of samples.
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Author: Arny KruegerDate: 09:50 08-04-08
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<google@woodall.me.uk> wrote in message
news:c2de71f0-ba4b-45e5-88fd-d13f742e0bc5@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com
> On Apr 8, 6:54 am, Eeyore
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:
>>> Hi:
>>
>>> Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores
>>> audio without using any form of sampling?
>>
>> NO
>
> Depends for how long.
>
> Wikipedia gives speed of sound in silicon (thin rod) as
> 8433 m/s.
>
> So you ought to be able to store a few microseconds of
> sound in a resonably sized crystal for a very short
> period - sort of dynamic RAM for sound :-)
>
> (The noise added when you try and "refresh" will drown
> out any signal in a very short space of time although
> I've got no idea how many "refreshes" might be possible
> before the noise drowns out the signal)
Back in the days when people took acoustic delay lines seriously, they
shaped the medium into forms that provided relatively lengthy unique paths.
For example, maybe a pentagon. The acoustic wave would bounce around for a
while, crossing paths many times, and thus have a relatvely long path length
in a relatively small volume.
Last example of this I ever saw implemented was a device called (I seem to
recall as) the IBM 2448 display controller. Each display unit was basically
a TV set without a tuner. The controller had one delay line per display. The
video for one screen would bounce around a quartz delay line for 1/30th of a
second, if memory serves.
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Author: Michael R. KestiDate: 10:05 08-04-08
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"Mr.T" wrote:
>"Michael R. Kesti" <michaelkesti@nospam.net> wrote in message
>news:47FB0977.E74491DF@nospam.net...
>> "Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:
>>
>> >Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
>> >using any form of sampling?
>>
>> I generally avoid saying things are impossible but it seems nobody has
>> devices a a way to do what you here propose.
>>
>> >If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
>> >audio chip?
>>
>>
>> In the case of a silicon die (a chip) there is no mechanism for persistent
>> storage of voltage nor is there much in the way of distance along which
>> to store the voltage if there were such a mechanism.
>
>Ah but he never used the word "persistant", nor mention size contraints.
You're absolutely correct. I was, however, willing to read those into the
intended question. Do you think I was incorrect.
>A "chip" can mean anything, including potato ones :-)
That's cute, but I doubt that potato chips were intended to be included
as part of the question.
>Analog delay lines do exist.
Yes, they do. Do you believe that they embody the storage that was intended
in the question?
>> The answer, it seems, is that physics just doesn't provide a mechanism
>> that can be used to provide direct storage of analog audio on solid state
>> media.
>
>Nor did Radium use the words "solid state media" :-)
You are, again, absolutely correct. It seems that the OP's questions
were not asked as precisely as you would like. Perhaps you would do
well to ignore such questions rather than exposing your inability to
understand their rather obvious intended meaning.
>You did take his bait though :-(
Oh. Dear. I seem to have made the mistake of attempting to seriously
answer a question posed by an individual that I failed to recognize as
being the object of others disdain. Tsk. I hope I haven't completely
ruined the fun. Without knowing the history of those involved and seeing
only the articles in this thread, though, it appears to be easy to reach
conclusions that differ from some concerning who best resemble the last
centimeter of your digestive tract. :-|
--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mrkesti at hotmail dot com | - The Who, Bargain
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Author: John LarkinDate: 10:12 08-04-08
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On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 22:15:15 -0700, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
<glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:
>Hi:
>
>Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
>using any form of sampling?
>
>If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
>audio chip?
>
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Radium
There used to be charge-transfer "bucket brigade" analog delay chips,
but they still sampled the audio, although they didn't quantize it.
The stored charge packets degraded, so they couldn't store for long.
Multievel flash can store analog data for a long time, without
digitizing or quantizing, but it still has to store sequential
samples. I think some cheap voice recorders may use this.
John
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