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Sci.Electronics.Basics -> Seeking schematics/plans for decimal to binary (microswitch/relay) selector/controller
There are 23 messages in this thread.
You are currently looking at messages 20 to 23.
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On Jan 27, 4:17=A0pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:16:37 -0800 (PST), bill.slo...@ieee.org
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jan 26, 3:57=A0pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:27:44 -0800 (PST), bill.slo...@ieee.org
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >On Jan 26, 2:08=A0am, John Fields
<jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrot=
e:
> >> >> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:36:13 -0800 (PST), bill.slo...@ieee.org
> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> >On Jan 25, 6:08=A0pm, mad.scientist...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> >> I am interested in building a "selector"
gadget for devices that =
take
> >> >> >> jumpers
> >> >> >> to select a program, such as this game cartridge where
you have 5=
> >> >> >> jumpers
> >> >> >> to select program #0-31 (the jumpers represent the
binary number)=
:
>
> >> >> ><snip>
>
> >> >> >Why don't you just use a rotary switch which opens and closes
four
> >> >> >outputs. You can get binary coded decimal or hexadecimal - if
you u=
se
> >> >> >a hex switch your users have to understand the the sequence
> >> >> >0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B.D,E,F.
>
> >> >> ---
> >> >> What, no "C"? ;)
> >> >> ---
>
> >> >Oops. That should have been 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,C,D,E,F. Sorry.
>
> >> >> >Farnell stocks both kinds of switch in a variety of formats,
and th=
ere
> >> >> >must be other broad-line distributors who cater to the
segment of t=
he
> >> >> >market.
>
> >> >> >It's a lot easier and cheaper than programming a PIVC and
wiring up=
7-
> >> >> >segment displays.
>
> >> >> ---
> >> >> You still have to wire up seven-segment displays, and you still
have=
> >> >> to wire up them up to BCD to seven-segment decoder-drivers, and
you
> >> >> have to wire the inputs of the decoder-drivers to pulled-up or
> >> >> pulled-down switch contacts, so the only advantage is not having
to
> >> >> use logic to drive the decoder inputs.
>
> >> >Hexadecimal rotary switches have a pointer on the rotating bit which
> >> >points to the appropriate number out of the 16 printed on the front
of=
> >> >the part - you see the numbers and the pointer by virtue of the light
> >> >reflected from them.
>
> >> ---
> >> Not always, and why are you going on about a 16 state hexadecimal
> >> switch which can only switch between 16 channels when the OP said
> >> he's looking for a BCD display and the ability to switch between 32
> >> channels?
>
> >> You do know how BCD works, don't you?
> >> ---
>
> >Sure. But what the client asks for, what the client wants, and what
> >the client needs are three different things.
>
> ---
> And you, of course, are the one who will determine what the client
> gets?
Don't be silly. The client makes up their own mind. The trick is give
them the information they need to make a choice that they are happy
with at the time, and will stay happy with for some time to come.
<snipped irrelevant joke>
> >You get satisfied customers by giving them what they need at minimum
> >expense. If they really need a BCD display, that's what you give them,
> >but if they can settle for two parallel octal rotary switches
> >displaying all the octal numbers from 00 to 37 or one hex rotary
> >switch plus a toggle switch the circuit can be much simpler and
> >appreciably cheaper
>
> ---
> What a horse's ass you are.
In your opinion - as if it mattered.
> One gets satisfied customers by giving them what they want, and
> second guessing them by telling them that what they really need and
> what you'll provide them with is the Stilton you've selected for
> them instead of the Roquefort they really want isn't going to get
> you many happy campers.
You don't second guess them - you offer them them Stilton and
Roquefort as alternatives to the Kraft Cheddar they learned about the
school canteen.
> Or, BTW, many employment offers.
And 555 experts get job offers from all over the world?
> >> >Wasting time and effort duplicating this with a
> >> >seven segment display
>
> ><snipped the fun bit>
>
> >> Besides, the OP stated that he wanted to use seven-segment displays
> >> so, unlike you, who wants to shove his "solutions" down
everybody's
> >> throats I prefer to give 'em what they ask for.
>
> >I prefer to give them what they want, rather than what they ask for.
>
> ---
> No, you prefer to give them what you think they should have.
> ---
Sure. They are less likely to come back bitching about me not telling
them about a better solution when they find out it exists. But then
again, your customers would not be all that enterprsing to start with.
> >Getting them to understand what they actually want can take a while
> >and requires some diplomacy - not one of my strong points and not a
> >skill user groups offer the space to exercise.
>
> ---
> I think the problem isn't one of their being able to determine what
> they want, it more like your _not_ being able to determine what they
> want and trying to force your decision of what they need down their
> throats.
> ---
Well, you would like to think that.
> >> If he wants to use an UP/DOWN pushbutton scheme, or a pot and an
> >> ADC, that's fine with me and I enjoy the exercise of executing the
> >> design, while it seems all you enjoy is trying to execute the
> >> designer.
> >> ---
>
> >One of the marks of a good designer is that capacity to step back and
> >see what the client wants done - this does require some understanding
> >of what the client might be trying to achieve, and can frequently
> >avoid a great deal of unnecessary elaboration.
>
> ---
> Yes, and you certainly proved that you had no clue that the OP
> _wanted_ =A0to be able to switch 31 channels and get a decimal
> representation of the hot channel decimally when you unnecessarily
> elaborated on that totally useless hexadecimal implementation.
> --- =A0
I was perfectly well aware that the OP wanted to select one of 31
channels. It is less clear that they needed - or really wanted - an
eleborate, expensive and complicated decimal display of the channel
number.
> >> >> Which, when you look at the price of BCD encoded rotary switches
> >> >> turns out to be a serious _dis_ advantage.
>
> >> >You can pay of the order of $20 (if the U.S. dollar hasn't completely
> >> >collapsed since I looked at this evening paper) for a fancy
> >> >hexadecimal switch intended to end up on the front panel of
> >> >"professional" gear, or you can pay a couple of dollars for
a part in
> >> >a dual-in-line package intended to be soldered into a board.
>
> >> ---
> >> Ah, but if the application calls for a front panel, then the panel
> >> mounted rotary switch (or the ON/OFF pushbuttons, or the pot and
> >> ADC, or the rotary encoder, or thumbwheel switches, etc, etc.) could
> >> be used to good advantage, especially if the front panel was
> >> screened with numerical switch position/channel legends.
> >> --- =A0
>
> >Silk-screened front panels cost money - for prototype work we just
> >used Letraset transfers onto brushed aluminium to create the legends
> >and protected them with a layer or two of polyurethane varnish.
> >Cheaper and a great deal quicker.
>
> ---
> Yes, and I've used Dymo labels. So what?
Dymo labels look terrible and don't last.
> The point isn't that some panel marking methods are cheaper than
> others, it's that, basically, your hex "solution" won't yield the
> results the OP asked for.
> ---
No. But it might well serve the purpose.
> >> >Even Texas now has minimum wage legislation, so spending a couple of
> >> >hours wiring up several unnecessary seven segment display would chew
> >> >up rather more money than you'd need to spend even on a professional
> >> >rotary switch.
>
> >> ---
> >> Several hours???
>
> >> I guess you've never heard of PCB mount seven-segment displays.
>
> >Laying out a board to create a single protoptype can be worth the
> >effort for very high speed electronics. For this sort of work a one-
> >off prototype is usually hand-soldered onto perforated prototyping
> >boards. You can wire-wrap the connections but I've not seen it done in
> >recent years.
>
> ---
> Oh, well...
>
> If I don't go directly from schematic to PCB that's exactly how I do
> my prototypes and one-offs. =A0Vector T-44 terminals hot-pressed into
> FR-4 perfboard with 0.025" diameter holes on a 0.1" rectangular
> grid.
>
> Components are mounted on the forked side of the terminal and the
> connections wire-wrapped on the other side of the board. =A0For
> high-frequency stuff I use single or double sided copper clad
> perfboard and spot-face a 0.1" diameter space around the terminals.
>
> Works great.
> ---
Wire-wrapping isn't all that quick - pushing the device into the
printed circuit board doesn't take long, but making all the necessary
connections takes ages.
<snipped igression>
> >What the client thought they wanted, not knowing what alternatives
> >were available.
>
> ---
> You grasp at straws, Sloman.
>
> The client described what he wanted to achieve and presented a
> couple of ways he thought would get him where he wanted to be.
>
> Your cockamamie hex rotary switch "solution", LOL, cannot by itself
> a decimal display make.
> ---
If the OP actually needed a decimal display - in most cases all that
is necessary is an unambiguous indication of the channel selected and
a hexadecimal number serves the purpose just as well as a decimal
number - it isn't as if the OP wants to do arithmetic with the number
displayed.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
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Author: John FieldsDate: 12:16 28-01-08
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On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:23:30 -0800 (PST), bill.sloman@ieee.org
wrote:
>On Jan 27, 4:17 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:16:37 -0800 (PST), bill.slo...@ieee.org
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Jan 26, 3:57 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com>
wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:27:44 -0800 (PST), bill.slo...@ieee.org
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >On Jan 26, 2:08 am, John Fields
<jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>> >> >> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:36:13 -0800 (PST),
bill.slo...@ieee.org
>> >> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >On Jan 25, 6:08 pm, mad.scientist...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> I am interested in building a "selector"
gadget for devices that take
>> >> >> >> jumpers
>> >> >> >> to select a program, such as this game cartridge
where you have 5
>> >> >> >> jumpers
>> >> >> >> to select program #0-31 (the jumpers represent the
binary number):
>>
>> >> >> ><snip>
>>
>> >> >> >Why don't you just use a rotary switch which opens and
closes four
>> >> >> >outputs. You can get binary coded decimal or hexadecimal
- if you use
>> >> >> >a hex switch your users have to understand the the
sequence
>> >> >> >0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B.D,E,F.
>>
>> >> >> ---
>> >> >> What, no "C"? ;)
>> >> >> ---
>>
>> >> >Oops. That should have been 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,C,D,E,F.
Sorry.
>>
>> >> >> >Farnell stocks both kinds of switch in a variety of
formats, and there
>> >> >> >must be other broad-line distributors who cater to the
segment of the
>> >> >> >market.
>>
>> >> >> >It's a lot easier and cheaper than programming a PIVC and
wiring up 7-
>> >> >> >segment displays.
>>
>> >> >> ---
>> >> >> You still have to wire up seven-segment displays, and you
still have
>> >> >> to wire up them up to BCD to seven-segment decoder-drivers,
and you
>> >> >> have to wire the inputs of the decoder-drivers to pulled-up
or
>> >> >> pulled-down switch contacts, so the only advantage is not
having to
>> >> >> use logic to drive the decoder inputs.
>>
>> >> >Hexadecimal rotary switches have a pointer on the rotating bit
which
>> >> >points to the appropriate number out of the 16 printed on the
front of
>> >> >the part - you see the numbers and the pointer by virtue of the
light
>> >> >reflected from them.
>>
>> >> ---
>> >> Not always, and why are you going on about a 16 state hexadecimal
>> >> switch which can only switch between 16 channels when the OP said
>> >> he's looking for a BCD display and the ability to switch between 32
>> >> channels?
>>
>> >> You do know how BCD works, don't you?
>> >> ---
>>
>> >Sure. But what the client asks for, what the client wants, and what
>> >the client needs are three different things.
>>
>> ---
>> And you, of course, are the one who will determine what the client
>> gets?
>
>Don't be silly. The client makes up their own mind. The trick is give
>them the information they need to make a choice that they are happy
>with at the time, and will stay happy with for some time to come.
---
OK, the OP has all of the stuff I proposed and by now he must have
read your "contribution", so let's wait and see what he decides he
wants to do. Unfortunately, if he decides in my favor, I'm sure
you'll heap some abuse on him for making that choice since you've
already done so with that slur demeaning his .sig for no reason at
all other than to drag him down.
---
><snipped irrelevant joke>
>
>> >You get satisfied customers by giving them what they need at minimum
>> >expense. If they really need a BCD display, that's what you give them,
>> >but if they can settle for two parallel octal rotary switches
>> >displaying all the octal numbers from 00 to 37 or one hex rotary
>> >switch plus a toggle switch the circuit can be much simpler and
>> >appreciably cheaper
>>
>> ---
>> What a horse's ass you are.
>
>In your opinion - as if it mattered.
---
It must, since you keep replying, trying to convince me (as well as
yourself) that it doesn't.
Like saying it often enough will make it true?
---
>> One gets satisfied customers by giving them what they want, and
>> second guessing them by telling them that what they really need and
>> what you'll provide them with is the Stilton you've selected for
>> them instead of the Roquefort they really want isn't going to get
>> you many happy campers.
>
>You don't second guess them - you offer them them Stilton and
>Roquefort as alternatives to the Kraft Cheddar they learned about the
>school canteen.
>
>> Or, BTW, many employment offers.
>
>And 555 experts get job offers from all over the world?
---
I can't speak for anyone else, and I don't get job offers, but I do
get design work from clients all over the world.
You, however, vehemently being a 555 adversary, (and certainly not
an expert) seem to have become unemployable.
Cause and effect?
Perhaps you should start brushing up on your 555 skills; you might
at least then qualify for an entry level technician position in one
of the myriad firms which has passed you by.
---
>> >> >Wasting time and effort duplicating this with a
>> >> >seven segment display
>>
>> ><snipped the fun bit>
>>
>> >> Besides, the OP stated that he wanted to use seven-segment displays
>> >> so, unlike you, who wants to shove his "solutions" down
everybody's
>> >> throats I prefer to give 'em what they ask for.
>>
>> >I prefer to give them what they want, rather than what they ask for.
>>
>> ---
>> No, you prefer to give them what you think they should have.
>> ---
>
>Sure. They are less likely to come back bitching about me not telling
>them about a better solution when they find out it exists.
---
Like something other than that hex abortion you proposed, with that
afterthought toggle switch to get you from 15 to 31?
---
>But then
>again, your customers would not be all that enterprsing to start with.
---
Well, Bill, I have customers and you don't so you really don't have
much of a soapbox to be preaching from. Moreover, you don't know
who my customers are, so you're just pissing in the wind, as usual.
---
>> >Getting them to understand what they actually want can take a while
>> >and requires some diplomacy - not one of my strong points and not a
>> >skill user groups offer the space to exercise.
>>
>> ---
>> I think the problem isn't one of their being able to determine what
>> they want, it more like your _not_ being able to determine what they
>> want and trying to force your decision of what they need down their
>> throats.
>> ---
>
>Well, you would like to think that.
---
That's exactly what I think, not what I'd "like to think."
Is English not your first language?
---
>> >> If he wants to use an UP/DOWN pushbutton scheme, or a pot and an
>> >> ADC, that's fine with me and I enjoy the exercise of executing the
>> >> design, while it seems all you enjoy is trying to execute the
>> >> designer.
>> >> ---
>>
>> >One of the marks of a good designer is that capacity to step back and
>> >see what the client wants done - this does require some understanding
>> >of what the client might be trying to achieve, and can frequently
>> >avoid a great deal of unnecessary elaboration.
>>
>> ---
>> Yes, and you certainly proved that you had no clue that the OP
>> _wanted_ to be able to switch 31 channels and get a decimal
>> representation of the hot channel decimally when you unnecessarily
>> elaborated on that totally useless hexadecimal implementation.
>> ---
>
>I was perfectly well aware that the OP wanted to select one of 31
>channels.
---
One of 32 channels.
---
>It is less clear that they needed - or really wanted - an
>eleborate, expensive and complicated decimal display of the channel
>number.
Here, since it seems you misunderstood it the first time around, is
the OP's post:
"I am interested in building a "selector" gadget for devices that
take jumpers to select a program, such as this game cartridge where
you have 5 jumpers to select program #0-31 (the jumpers represent
the binary number):
http://www.retroblast.com/Misc/Vectrex.php
http://www.retroblast.com/images/stories/Image/rb_archive/photos/vectrex/Vectrex_Review%
20(4).JPG
http://www.retroblast.com/images/stories/Image/rb_archive/photos/vectrex/Vectrex_Review%
20(12).JPG
The selector would have two 7-segment LEDs that display the
currently selected program number (0-31), and a couple pushbuttons
(+/-) that let you increase/decrease the program #. The device
translates the number into binary and turns on/off the appropriate
switches or relays which are attached to the jumpers on the device
(ie the above game cartridge).
Or I would even like to build a kind of analog to digital converter
device which has a potentiometer (for example 100k) which gets
translated into an 8-bit number (0-255) and 8 switches get
opened/closed that represent the value of the pot. Adding three
7-segment LEDs to display the current value in decimal would be cool
and then it could be used as a "selector" as well.
Does anyone know of any plans or schematics out on the Web to
construct something like these? (For now I just wire switches to the
jumpers.)
Thanks."
Notice that he spells out, rather unambiguously, that he wants a way
to generate a 5 bit binary number manually (in order to select one
of 32 channels addressed in binary) and to represent the selected
channel in decimal notation using two or three seven-segment
displays.
As for the (Digi-Key) cost of the display:
LED DISPLAY, LUMEX LDS-A414RI 1.57 3.14
DISPLAY DRIVER, TI 74HC4511E 0.80 1.60
That comes to $4.74, which I don't think will exactly break the bank
and will give the OP exactly what he asked for/wants.
---
>> >> >> Which, when you look at the price of BCD encoded rotary
switches
>> >> >> turns out to be a serious _dis_ advantage.
>>
>> >> >You can pay of the order of $20 (if the U.S. dollar hasn't
completely
>> >> >collapsed since I looked at this evening paper) for a fancy
>> >> >hexadecimal switch intended to end up on the front panel of
>> >> >"professional" gear, or you can pay a couple of dollars
for a part in
>> >> >a dual-in-line package intended to be soldered into a board.
>>
>> >> ---
>> >> Ah, but if the application calls for a front panel, then the panel
>> >> mounted rotary switch (or the ON/OFF pushbuttons, or the pot and
>> >> ADC, or the rotary encoder, or thumbwheel switches, etc, etc.) could
>> >> be used to good advantage, especially if the front panel was
>> >> screened with numerical switch position/channel legends.
>> >> ---
>>
>> >Silk-screened front panels cost money - for prototype work we just
>> >used Letraset transfers onto brushed aluminium to create the legends
>> >and protected them with a layer or two of polyurethane varnish.
>> >Cheaper and a great deal quicker.
>>
>> ---
>> Yes, and I've used Dymo labels. So what?
>
>Dymo labels look terrible and don't last.
---
So what?
They're cheap, easily replaceable, and a great deal quicker than
taking the time needed to line up press-on letters so they don't
look amateurish. Plus, once press-on letters are overspayed it's a
done deal so if you don't take care with the layout they'll look
like shit forever.
Dymo label legends look like shit to start out with, and everyone
expects them to, so there's no onus placed on anyone for that.
Plus, they're easy to read and, since you're the one who's bitching
about cost, should realize that they give a lot of bang for the
buck.
---
>> The point isn't that some panel marking methods are cheaper than
>> others, it's that, basically, your hex "solution" won't yield the
>> results the OP asked for.
>> ---
>
>No. But it might well serve the purpose.
---
So what? It's not what the OP described in his wish list, so
whether it serves the purpose or not is immaterial.
After all, he's currently doing the switching with wire jumpers
which also serve the purpose, but they're not what he wants and are
only a little bit more clumsy than your offering.
---
>> >> >Even Texas now has minimum wage legislation, so spending a couple
of
>> >> >hours wiring up several unnecessary seven segment display would
chew
>> >> >up rather more money than you'd need to spend even on a
professional
>> >> >rotary switch.
>>
>> >> ---
>> >> Several hours???
>>
>> >> I guess you've never heard of PCB mount seven-segment displays.
>>
>> >Laying out a board to create a single protoptype can be worth the
>> >effort for very high speed electronics. For this sort of work a one-
>> >off prototype is usually hand-soldered onto perforated prototyping
>> >boards. You can wire-wrap the connections but I've not seen it done in
>> >recent years.
>>
>> ---
>> Oh, well...
>>
>> If I don't go directly from schematic to PCB that's exactly how I do
>> my prototypes and one-offs. Vector T-44 terminals hot-pressed into
>> FR-4 perfboard with 0.025" diameter holes on a 0.1" rectangular
>> grid.
>>
>> Components are mounted on the forked side of the terminal and the
>> connections wire-wrapped on the other side of the board. For
>> high-frequency stuff I use single or double sided copper clad
>> perfboard and spot-face a 0.1" diameter space around the terminals.
>>
>> Works great.
>> ---
>
>Wire-wrapping isn't all that quick - pushing the device into the
>printed circuit board doesn't take long,
---
It's not printed circuit board, it's FR-4 perfboard.
Here:
http://www.vectorelect.com/Vectorbord.htm
---
>but making all the necessary connections takes ages.
---
If you don't know how to wire-wrap and you have bad vision and
don't have the right tools, that's true.
However, that's not the case here.
---
><snipped igression>
>
>> >What the client thought they wanted, not knowing what alternatives
>> >were available.
>>
>> ---
>> You grasp at straws, Sloman.
>>
>> The client described what he wanted to achieve and presented a
>> couple of ways he thought would get him where he wanted to be.
>>
>> Your cockamamie hex rotary switch "solution", LOL, cannot by itself
>> a decimal display make.
>> ---
>
>If the OP actually needed a decimal display - in most cases all that
>is necessary is an unambiguous indication of the channel selected and
>a hexadecimal number serves the purpose just as well as a decimal
>number - it isn't as if the OP wants to do arithmetic with the number
>displayed.
---
Indeed, and that's exactly what he'd have to do to in order to
decode the hex legends on the switch along with the position of the
MSB toggle switch. Clumsy, at best.
Why can't you get it through that thick goddam skull of yours that
what's important here is to give the OP what he _wants_ instead of
insisting that he be subjected to the vagaries of your determination
of his needs?
From your past (and present) rhetoric it sounds to me like you think
you're uniquely qualified to determine what everyone's needs should
be and you'd like to be the one to dole out that amount.
I can see it now...
The Sloman approved haircut, mode of dress, political ideology, and
meal.
Remind you of anyone?
--
JF
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On Jan 28, 6:16=A0pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:23:30 -0800 (PST), bill.slo...@ieee.org
> wrote:
<snip>
> >> Or, BTW, many employment offers.
>
> >And 555 experts get job offers from all over the world?
>
> ---
> I can't speak for anyone else, and I don't get job offers, but I do
> get design work from clients all over the world.
>
> You, however, vehemently being a 555 adversary, (and certainly not
> an expert) seem to have become unemployable. =A0
>
> Cause and effect?
Probably not - the 555 isn't being designed into new products these
days, outside the bizarre niche market which you exploit.
> Perhaps you should start brushing up on your 555 skills; you might
> at least then qualify for an entry level technician position in one
> of the myriad firms which has passed you by.
I'm inclined to agree that skill in using the 555 would be evidence of
the kind of hobby interest in electronics that one would look for in
candidates for an
entry level technician position. I'm a little too old and a little too
over-qualified to be a candidate for this kind of job, as you'd know
if you had much experience of working in companies big enough to hire
wet-behind-the-ears technicians.
<snip>
> >Well, you would like to think that.
>
> ---
> That's exactly what I think, not what I'd "like to think."
>
> Is English not your first language?
Is it yours? The implication of "you would like to think that" is not
that you are thinking something other than you claim, but rather that
your opinion is one that suits you, with a strong suggestion that a
more objective observer would have a different opinion.
A similar phrase was famously used by Mandy Rice-Davies during the
Profumo scandal in the U.K. in 1963 and variants are often presented
as quotations of what she said.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandy_Rice-Davies
As an intellectually challenged speaker of a restricted American
dialect of English you might be forgiven for failing to understand
what was meant
<snip>
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
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