Author: robbDate: 00:06 23-09-07
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well i was wrong it is %3 perox, not %5
think this will make a difference ?
thanks for info,
robb
"RST Engineering (jw)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote in message
news:13fadnlob7if083@news.supernews.com...
> Copper will dissolve just fine in the muriatic/peroxide/water
1:1:1
> drugstore strength ratio you describe. Depending on how much
copper and how
> much solution you have, the resultant solution AFTER dissolving
the copper
> will be either a bright transparent emerald green or a murky
opaque
> yellowish-green.
>
> The bright green solution can be used to dissolve more copper
until the
> solution turns murky and opaque. At that point, bubbling air
(think
> aquarium pump with plastic bubbler) through the murky solution
will
> eventually return the solution to bright transparent green
again, at which
> time you can dissolve more copper and around and around you go.
>
> A little agitation or bubbling during the etch process helps
things along
> tremendously, as does a SLIGHT heating of the solution (think
aquarium glass
> heater). Use a glass or plastic container (think aquarium) to
do the
> etching.
>
> Jim
>
> --
> "If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
> --Henry Ford
>
> "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in message
> news:13f9rud1g9kuda6@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> > i read on the various sites about amking copper disolve with
a
> > 1:1:1 mix of muriatic:peroxide:water ? is that true or make a
> > good etchant ? and surely they are not refering to the 5%
> > peroxide found in the local drug/food stores ? if not then
what
> > % peroxide content would one want to use ?
> >
> > thanks again, rob
> >
> >
>
>
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Author: ChairmanOfTheBoredDate: 03:23 23-09-07
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On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:53:21 -0400, "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote:
>what software is best used to make the images for the DIY laser printer PCB
>resist trick ?
>
>ie. print image on the laser printer, iron on copper cover board, wash away
>paper, disolve exposed copper, remove the plastic, drill holes .....
>
>thanks for any help,
>rob
>
Buy a sign cutting machine and use the film type resist sheets.
Cut the "sign" out and apply it to the copper clad PCB media, and etch
away!
Those sign machines are pretty accurate, gantry operated cutting stylus
machines.
Unless you are talking about fine pitch work.
You could always print on standard media with standard white paper, and
use the old camera method with photo-resist materials.
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Author: ChairmanOfTheBoredDate: 03:56 23-09-07
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On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 19:56:16 -0700, Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com>
wrote:
>robb wrote:
>
>> what software is best used to make the images for the DIY laser printer PCB
>> resist trick ?
>>
>> ie. print image on the laser printer, iron on copper cover board, wash away
>> paper, disolve exposed copper, remove the plastic, drill holes .....
>>
>> thanks for any help,
>> rob
>>
>>
> Software WILL NOT solve the paper path problem; that path *MUST* be
>perfectly straight to allow the passage of a PCB.
> Also, the printer must allow for rather thick paper ("pasteboard"
>comes to mind).
> Damn few printer models had straight paths; you may have to do some
>difficult reseach and get a used printer.
Even fewer handle more than 50 mil stock.
A LaserJet plotter comes to mind. They are more forgiving of stock
thickness, and many can be set for thicker media.
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Author: Robert RolandDate: 07:17 23-09-07
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On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 00:04:46 -0400, "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote:
>might have to break out one of my old PC boxes to test those DOS
>versions out.
Take a look at "VMWare Server". It is a free virtualisation software.
It works spectacularly well.
--
RoRo
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Author: JosephKKDate: 19:58 23-09-07
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Robert Baer robertbaer@localnet.com posted to sci.electronics.design:
> robb wrote:
>
>> what software is best used to make the images for the DIY laser
>> printer PCB resist trick ?
>>
>> ie. print image on the laser printer, iron on copper cover board,
>> wash away
>> paper, disolve exposed copper, remove the plastic, drill holes
>> .....
>>
>> thanks for any help,
>> rob
>>
>>
> Software WILL NOT solve the paper path problem; that path *MUST*
> be
> perfectly straight to allow the passage of a PCB.
> Also, the printer must allow for rather thick paper ("pasteboard"
> comes to mind).
> Damn few printer models had straight paths; you may have to do
> some
> difficult reseach and get a used printer.
That is the number one reason that the transfer method is used with
laser printers. remember that the transfer technique flips the image
on one axis. See gootee boards.
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Author: robbDate: 20:38 23-09-07
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hi ,
do you know if phosphoric or oxalic acid can safely be
substituted for the muriatic ? i noticed they have similar pKa
value.
robb
"RST Engineering (jw)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote in message
news:13fadnlob7if083@news.supernews.com...
> Copper will dissolve just fine in the muriatic/peroxide/water
1:1:1
> drugstore strength ratio you describe. Depending on how much
copper and how
> much solution you have, the resultant solution AFTER dissolving
the copper
> will be either a bright transparent emerald green or a murky
opaque
> yellowish-green.
>
> The bright green solution can be used to dissolve more copper
until the
> solution turns murky and opaque. At that point, bubbling air
(think
> aquarium pump with plastic bubbler) through the murky solution
will
> eventually return the solution to bright transparent green
again, at which
> time you can dissolve more copper and around and around you go.
>
> A little agitation or bubbling during the etch process helps
things along
> tremendously, as does a SLIGHT heating of the solution (think
aquarium glass
> heater). Use a glass or plastic container (think aquarium) to
do the
> etching.
>
> Jim
>
> --
> "If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
> --Henry Ford
>
> "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in message
> news:13f9rud1g9kuda6@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> > i read on the various sites about amking copper disolve with
a
> > 1:1:1 mix of muriatic:peroxide:water ? is that true or make a
> > good etchant ? and surely they are not refering to the 5%
> > peroxide found in the local drug/food stores ? if not then
what
> > % peroxide content would one want to use ?
> >
> > thanks again, rob
> >
> >
>
>
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Author: slebetman@yahoo.comDate: 05:52 24-09-07
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On Sep 22, 6:40 pm, "robb" <s...@where.on.net> wrote:
> "robb" <s...@where.on.net> wrote in message
>
> news:13f78alouaffrb6@corp.supernews.com...> what software is best used to make
the images for the DIY laser
> printer PCB
> > resist trick ?
>
> > ie. print image on the laser printer, iron on copper cover
> board, wash away
> > paper, disolve exposed copper, remove the plastic, drill holes
> .....
>
> i read on the various sites about amking copper disolve with a
> 1:1:1 mix of muriatic:peroxide:water ? is that true or make a
> good etchant ? and surely they are not refering to the 5%
> peroxide found in the local drug/food stores ? if not then what
> % peroxide content would one want to use ?
>
I'm using this solution. Though it's 1:2 acid:peroxide for me. You
don't need water as hydrogen peroxide is 99.5 % water or more. And
yes, they are referring to the weak peroxide you can buy in drug
stores. Muriatic acid is just weak hydrochloric acid (again, more
water than acid).
My typical experience is that a freshly made solution will etch a 10cm
by 5cm board in under 5 minutes at room temperature without agitation.
Though towards the end of 5 minutes I'd recommend having a look at the
board and manually shake your etching tray until done. That's because
although this solution is very cheap it is also very strong and can
over-etch if you leave your board in for too long.
If you're only making a few PCBs occasionally then the solution will
keep for about a week. You can add a bit more peroxide if you find it
a bit weak after a couple of days.
If you're making lots of PCBs then you should invest in a bubble tank.
Not to speed up etching, this stuff etches in under 5 minutes as is
already, but to re-generate the etchant. Once the solution turns blue
or bluish green pump bubbles into it until it becomes light green.
Then what you have is a completely different etchant -- cupric acid
which is a very good industrial grade etchant. Once you've got your
cupric acid then you can basically keep regenerating it with air
bubbles whenever it weakens.
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Author: robbDate: 07:03 24-09-07
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great, thanks "sleb" for the information
robb
"slebetman@yahoo.com" <slebetman@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190627542.686910.208670@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 22, 6:40 pm, "robb" <s...@where.on.net> wrote:
> > "robb" <s...@where.on.net> wrote in message
> >
> > news:13f78alouaffrb6@corp.supernews.com...> what software is
best used to make the images for the DIY laser
> > printer PCB
> > > resist trick ?
> >
> > > ie. print image on the laser printer, iron on copper cover
> > board, wash away
> > > paper, disolve exposed copper, remove the plastic, drill
holes
> > .....
> >
> > i read on the various sites about amking copper disolve with
a
> > 1:1:1 mix of muriatic:peroxide:water ? is that true or make a
> > good etchant ? and surely they are not refering to the 5%
> > peroxide found in the local drug/food stores ? if not then
what
> > % peroxide content would one want to use ?
> >
>
> I'm using this solution. Though it's 1:2 acid:peroxide for me.
You
> don't need water as hydrogen peroxide is 99.5 % water or more.
And
> yes, they are referring to the weak peroxide you can buy in
drug
> stores. Muriatic acid is just weak hydrochloric acid (again,
more
> water than acid).
>
> My typical experience is that a freshly made solution will etch
a 10cm
> by 5cm board in under 5 minutes at room temperature without
agitation.
> Though towards the end of 5 minutes I'd recommend having a look
at the
> board and manually shake your etching tray until done. That's
because
> although this solution is very cheap it is also very strong and
can
> over-etch if you leave your board in for too long.
>
> If you're only making a few PCBs occasionally then the solution
will
> keep for about a week. You can add a bit more peroxide if you
find it
> a bit weak after a couple of days.
>
> If you're making lots of PCBs then you should invest in a
bubble tank.
> Not to speed up etching, this stuff etches in under 5 minutes
as is
> already, but to re-generate the etchant. Once the solution
turns blue
> or bluish green pump bubbles into it until it becomes light
green.
> Then what you have is a completely different etchant -- cupric
acid
> which is a very good industrial grade etchant. Once you've got
your
> cupric acid then you can basically keep regenerating it with
air
> bubbles whenever it weakens.
>
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Author: JerryDate: 10:36 24-09-07
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"slebetman@yahoo.com" <slebetman@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1190627542.686910.208670@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com:
> On Sep 22, 6:40 pm, "robb" <s...@where.on.net> wrote:
>> "robb" <s...@where.on.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:13f78alouaffrb6@corp.supernews.com...> what software is best
>> used to make the images for the DIY laser printer PCB
>> > resist trick ?
>>
>> > ie. print image on the laser printer, iron on copper cover
>> board, wash away
>> > paper, disolve exposed copper, remove the plastic, drill holes
>> .....
>>
>> i read on the various sites about amking copper disolve with a
>> 1:1:1 mix of muriatic:peroxide:water ? is that true or make a
>> good etchant ? and surely they are not refering to the 5%
>> peroxide found in the local drug/food stores ? if not then what
>> % peroxide content would one want to use ?
>>
>
> I'm using this solution. Though it's 1:2 acid:peroxide for me. You
> don't need water as hydrogen peroxide is 99.5 % water or more. And
> yes, they are referring to the weak peroxide you can buy in drug
> stores. Muriatic acid is just weak hydrochloric acid (again, more
> water than acid).
>
> My typical experience is that a freshly made solution will etch a 10cm
> by 5cm board in under 5 minutes at room temperature without agitation.
> Though towards the end of 5 minutes I'd recommend having a look at the
> board and manually shake your etching tray until done. That's because
> although this solution is very cheap it is also very strong and can
> over-etch if you leave your board in for too long.
>
> If you're only making a few PCBs occasionally then the solution will
> keep for about a week. You can add a bit more peroxide if you find it
> a bit weak after a couple of days.
>
> If you're making lots of PCBs then you should invest in a bubble tank.
> Not to speed up etching, this stuff etches in under 5 minutes as is
> already, but to re-generate the etchant. Once the solution turns blue
> or bluish green pump bubbles into it until it becomes light green.
> Then what you have is a completely different etchant -- cupric acid
> which is a very good industrial grade etchant. Once you've got your
> cupric acid then you can basically keep regenerating it with air
> bubbles whenever it weakens.
>
Thanks for that. How do you dispose of the solution when its used up or
old?
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Author: RST Engineering (jw)Date: 11:02 24-09-07
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Author: JeffMDate: 14:42 24-09-07
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RST Engineering (jw) wrote:
>By the way, has anybody taken the time to teach you how to snip?
Says the guy who top-posts.
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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Author: robbDate: 10:25 26-09-07
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hello,
i am using ExpressPCB and i have two layer board.
I need to print one of the images (bottom or top ) flipped and
having trouble.
there is a flip option for components so i tried to make my
drawing a component but i can not create a component with traces.
So what is the method for producing a flipped/mirrored image of
the PCB traces ?
I can export to a bmp but
thanks for any help,
robb
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Author: JeffMDate: 10:50 26-09-07
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robb wrote:
>i am using ExpressPCB[...]
>I need to print one of the images (bottom or top ) flipped
>and having trouble.
I believe I already used the phrases "lock-in-ware"
"jump thru hoops" (SPECIFICALLY about printing)
and "real deal".
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Author: robbDate: 14:47 26-09-07
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"JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote in message
news:1190818257.321066.21110@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> robb wrote:
> >i am using ExpressPCB[...]
> >I need to print one of the images (bottom or top ) flipped
> >and having trouble.
>
> I believe I already used the phrases "lock-in-ware"
> "jump thru hoops" (SPECIFICALLY about printing)
> and "real deal".
>
so you did JeffryM... so you did.
yes i did read it and i know you said it and i do appreciate
your sharing your info but jumping through hoops sounds hopeful
and.....
i tried kincad and it was just too much there for what i want to
do, i mean what do you need to draw a PCB ??? a component list,
layer select, trace draw and pad draw thats like 3 buttons and a
drop down select box plus an options window for customizing. gEDA
was too difficult to install
anyways i was hoping there was a crack....
in my day we used disassemblers, tracers and hex-editors to
modify application binaries to enable certain features that were
just simply disabled through run time switches or other
simplistic internal checks. you could spot these enableable
features in apps because the app allowed you perform functions on
internal or vendor provided data sets but not on you own data
set. Later with windoze "events based" application frameworks
and moving config into registry settings there were registry
monitoring, file monitoring and events watching tools to watch
what the applications were looking for.... occasionally a
careless designer/programmer might not hide registry access to a
key called flip_option = 0 or you might see an
MS_Menu_Item5_Disable event etc....
so if there is no magic user setting then maybe some one has
found the simplest loops to jump through and i won't need to
rediscover those hoops ??
expressPCB will let you flip their components but not you own
custom component then they will not allow traces in custom
components nor can user use certain types of pads in the custom
components although express does and the output images does not
include traces either .....
i see the hoops just wondering how to navigate the hoops, someone
made acooment suggesting it was possible so how is the question ?
oh well i guess i could spent that rant learning kincad
thanks,
robb
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Author: Ken FowlerDate: 00:02 27-09-07
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On 26-Sep-2007, "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote:
> Path:
>
border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!new
sfeed.freenet.de!xlned.com!feeder1.xlned.com!txtfeed2.tudelft.nl!tudelft.nl!txtfeed1.tudel
ft.nl!feeder1.cambrium.nl!feed.tweaknews.nl!138.199.65.86.MISMATCH!sn-xt-ams-06!sn-xt-ams-
05!sn-post-ams-02!sn-post-sjc-02!sn-post-sjc-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-m
ail
> From: "robb" <some@where.on.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.design
> Subject: [ExpressPCB] how to print for 2 layer board ? was:software used to make
the laserprinter
> PCB etch resist images ?
> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:25:46 -0400
> Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
> Message-ID: <13fkqk18e6uaid0@corp.supernews.com>
> References: <13f78alouaffrb6@corp.supernews.com>
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1896
> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com
> Lines: 17
> Bytes: 1509
> Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com sci.electronics.basics:277876
sci.electronics.design:844060
>
> hello,
> i am using ExpressPCB and i have two layer board.
>
> I need to print one of the images (bottom or top ) flipped and
> having trouble.
>
> there is a flip option for components so i tried to make my
> drawing a component but i can not create a component with traces.
> So what is the method for producing a flipped/mirrored image of
> the PCB traces ?
>
> I can export to a bmp but
>
> thanks for any help,
> robb
I used Express PCB and Schematic to create a one time project. I didn't need Gerber
support for
further development and the price for boards was OK. I have also used it to produce a
board by
Toner Transfer. For single sided boards it works fine. The problem is when you need to
flip the
reverse side copper and the silkscreen. There is no way to print the copper and
silkscreen
reversed. I made my silkscreen printout by printing to a bitmap, then importing the
bitmap into
Turbo Cad and flipping it. You can also scan the normal Express PCB output to a JPG
format and flip
it in a photo editor. You have to be careful with the scaling. I could also replicate
the artwork
to fill up a whole sheet of patterns. I like the simplicity of the Express tools.
Ken Fowler, KO6NO
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Author: robbDate: 16:33 28-09-07
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"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in message
news:13f78alouaffrb6@corp.supernews.com...
> what software is best used to make the images for the DIY laser
printer PCB
> resist trick ?
>
> ie. print image on the laser printer, iron on copper cover
board, wash away
> paper, disolve exposed copper, remove the plastic, drill holes
.....
>
Hello i posted some of my PCB progress in
"alt.binaries.schematics.electronics"
i was hopping for some experienced advice and critiques on
design, layout , how to improve what is wrong what is right etc..
thanks for your help and time,
robb
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Author: JosephKKDate: 17:45 29-09-07
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robb some@where.on.net posted to sci.electronics.design:
> hi ,
> do you know if phosphoric or oxalic acid can safely be
> substituted for the muriatic ? i noticed they have similar pKa
> value.
>
> robb
>
> "RST Engineering (jw)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote in message
> news:13fadnlob7if083@news.supernews.com...
>> Copper will dissolve just fine in the muriatic/peroxide/water
> 1:1:1
>> drugstore strength ratio you describe. Depending on how much
> copper and how
>> much solution you have, the resultant solution AFTER dissolving
> the copper
>> will be either a bright transparent emerald green or a murky
> opaque
>> yellowish-green.
>>
>> The bright green solution can be used to dissolve more copper
> until the
>> solution turns murky and opaque. At that point, bubbling air
> (think
>> aquarium pump with plastic bubbler) through the murky solution
> will
>> eventually return the solution to bright transparent green
> again, at which
>> time you can dissolve more copper and around and around you go.
>>
>> A little agitation or bubbling during the etch process helps
> things along
>> tremendously, as does a SLIGHT heating of the solution (think
> aquarium glass
>> heater). Use a glass or plastic container (think aquarium) to
> do the
>> etching.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> --
>> "If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
>> --Henry Ford
>>
>> "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in message
>> news:13f9rud1g9kuda6@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>>
>> > i read on the various sites about amking copper disolve with
> a
>> > 1:1:1 mix of muriatic:peroxide:water ? is that true or make a
>> > good etchant ? and surely they are not refering to the 5%
>> > peroxide found in the local drug/food stores ? if not then
> what
>> > % peroxide content would one want to use ?
>> >
>> > thanks again, rob
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
It is less a question of safely than usefully, pKa is not the only
issue.
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Author: MarraDate: 15:15 11-10-07
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Keep the tracks as thick as possible.
Keep pads as big as possible without them causing shorts.
I use PCBCAD21 which I got off ebay for a few pounds.
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Author: JeffMDate: 15:30 11-10-07
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Author: MarraDate: 18:19 13-10-07
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On 11 Oct, 20:30, JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:
> (was: making laserprinter PCB etch resist images ?)
>
> Marra wrote:
> >[deceitful SPAM]
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=3Ddefine:Astroturfinghttp://groups.google.=
com/groups/search?q=3DPCBCAD21+OR+PCBCAD17&scoring...
>
> Know your vendor (a real jerk).http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electro=
nics.design/browse_frm/thre...
But I am a not for profit vendor !
Hence a huge PCB CAD program for peanuts.
A similar program from Number one systems would be =A3400.
So get your facts right before accusing people of spamming !
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