Author: CptDondoDate: 18:20 17-07-07
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I've got a PLC (a little controller) that runs off a generator. The PLC
keeps locking up; we suspect it's due to spikes from the generator.
The PLC only draws a tiny amount of power - less than an amp at 120vac.
Is there an inexpensive filter we can get or build for this thing?
Thanks,
--Yan
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Author: Tom BiasiDate: 20:01 17-07-07
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"CptDondo" <yan@NsOeSiPnAeMr.com> wrote in message
news:139qg9ohi0vrgb9@corp.supernews.com...
> I've got a PLC (a little controller) that runs off a generator. The PLC
> keeps locking up; we suspect it's due to spikes from the generator.
>
> The PLC only draws a tiny amount of power - less than an amp at 120vac.
>
> Is there an inexpensive filter we can get or build for this thing?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Yan
Maybe. Filtering keeps something out. Maybe you need something in. Like a
solid sinusoidal 120 VAC.
There could be many things glitching up your PLC.
Specs on the unit and the generator would help.
Tom
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Author: Tom BiasiDate: 20:36 17-07-07
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"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote in
message
news:Tcdni.559$ej2.252@newsfe02.lga...
> CptDondo wrote:
>
>> I've got a PLC (a little controller) that runs off a generator. The PLC
>> keeps locking up; we suspect it's due to spikes from the generator.
>>
>> The PLC only draws a tiny amount of power - less than an amp at 120vac.
>>
>> Is there an inexpensive filter we can get or build for this thing?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Yan
> Get your self a cheap low power UPS just to operate the PLC.
>
>
> --
> "I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
> Real Programmers Do things like this.
> http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
>
The cheap, low power UPS may cause him the same problems.
Tom
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Author: JamieDate: 20:46 17-07-07
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CptDondo wrote:
> I've got a PLC (a little controller) that runs off a generator. The PLC
> keeps locking up; we suspect it's due to spikes from the generator.
>
> The PLC only draws a tiny amount of power - less than an amp at 120vac.
>
> Is there an inexpensive filter we can get or build for this thing?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Yan
Get your self a cheap low power UPS just to operate the PLC.
--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
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Author: JamieDate: 21:29 17-07-07
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Tom Biasi wrote:
>
> "Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote in
> message news:Tcdni.559$ej2.252@newsfe02.lga...
>
>> CptDondo wrote:
>>
>>> I've got a PLC (a little controller) that runs off a generator. The
>>> PLC keeps locking up; we suspect it's due to spikes from the generator.
>>>
>>> The PLC only draws a tiny amount of power - less than an amp at 120vac.
>>>
>>> Is there an inexpensive filter we can get or build for this thing?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Yan
>>
>> Get your self a cheap low power UPS just to operate the PLC.
>>
>>
>> --
>> "I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
>> Real Programmers Do things like this.
>> http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
>>
> The cheap, low power UPS may cause him the same problems.
>
> Tom
We use industrial mini ups supplies on our PLC's at work, they work
just fine. They are not intended to run the PLC for any length of time,
just produce a nice sine wave 120 V AC . the unit actually shuts off if
it detects constant power loss after a set time on the front panel..
we set ours on most for aprox 1 min. and will restart when power is
returned for at least 1 min .
noise activities and short drop outs can get very erratic and these
things just keep supplying with no problem.
--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
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Author: Tom BiasiDate: 21:50 17-07-07
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"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote in
message
news:4Rdni.751$ej2.226@newsfe02.lga...
> Tom Biasi wrote:
>
>>
>> "Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net>
wrote in
>> message news:Tcdni.559$ej2.252@newsfe02.lga...
>>
>>> CptDondo wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've got a PLC (a little controller) that runs off a generator. The
>>>> PLC keeps locking up; we suspect it's due to spikes from the generator.
>>>>
>>>> The PLC only draws a tiny amount of power - less than an amp at 120vac.
>>>>
>>>> Is there an inexpensive filter we can get or build for this thing?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> --Yan
>>>
>>> Get your self a cheap low power UPS just to operate the PLC.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
>>> Real Programmers Do things like this.
>>> http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
>>>
>> The cheap, low power UPS may cause him the same problems.
>>
>> Tom
> We use industrial mini ups supplies on our PLC's at work, they work
> just fine. They are not intended to run the PLC for any length of time,
> just produce a nice sine wave 120 V AC . the unit actually shuts off if
> it detects constant power loss after a set time on the front panel..
> we set ours on most for aprox 1 min. and will restart when power is
> returned for at least 1 min .
> noise activities and short drop outs can get very erratic and these
> things just keep supplying with no problem.
>
>
> --
> "I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
> Real Programmers Do things like this.
> http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
>
Hey, If they work, Fine.
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Author: Michael A. TerrellDate: 01:03 18-07-07
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Jamie wrote:
>
> We use industrial mini ups supplies on our PLC's at work, they work
> just fine. They are not intended to run the PLC for any length of time,
> just produce a nice sine wave 120 V AC . the unit actually shuts off if
> it detects constant power loss after a set time on the front panel..
> we set ours on most for aprox 1 min. and will restart when power is
> returned for at least 1 min .
> noise activities and short drop outs can get very erratic and these
> things just keep supplying with no problem.
You aren't running them off a small generator that drifts in
frequency. Also, some UPS check the line frequency to make sure the
supply is stable before switching. Unless you are using a very
expensive (And large) online UPS it is still running off the line input,
through a simple LC line frequency filter to remove line noise. Small
and cheap UPS are all off line design, so all you are doing is switching
to battery backup to replace the occasional missing cycles. Read the
documentation of your UPS to see what you are really using.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Author: zackDate: 01:30 18-07-07
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mabe you could use a active power conditioner
transformer type.
"CptDondo" <yan@NsOeSiPnAeMr.com> wrote in message
news:139qg9ohi0vrgb9@corp.supernews.com...
> I've got a PLC (a little controller) that runs off a generator. The PLC
> keeps locking up; we suspect it's due to spikes from the generator.
>
> The PLC only draws a tiny amount of power - less than an amp at 120vac.
>
> Is there an inexpensive filter we can get or build for this thing?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Yan
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Author: CptDondoDate: 17:56 18-07-07
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Jamie wrote:
> the units we use derive their source from the inverter internally which
> is battery back-up. the AC does nothing but keep the battery charged and
> supply the inverter.
> The cycle change does not effect these units, voltage dips do not
> effect these units. I've repaired 2 of these units due to mother nature
> whacking our facility. It did nothing but take out the fuse between the
> charging circuit and the battery. the battery absorb along with the TVS
> units the over surge which force the fuse link to open and also took out
> the charging circuit how ever. The unit keeps on operating just fine for
> it's preset time before it shuts off.
> The charging system is a very simply 60 hz xformer with a bridge, a
> couple of resistors, TVS and fuse protection. They're nice little bricks
> that sit on the din rail..
>
> Argue all you want, facts are facts.
>
>
Do you have a manufacturer / source for these? I'll see if they want to
spring for them....
--Yan
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Author: JamieDate: 18:06 18-07-07
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> Jamie wrote:
>
>>We use industrial mini ups supplies on our PLC's at work, they work
>>just fine. They are not intended to run the PLC for any length of time,
>>just produce a nice sine wave 120 V AC . the unit actually shuts off if
>>it detects constant power loss after a set time on the front panel..
>> we set ours on most for aprox 1 min. and will restart when power is
>>returned for at least 1 min .
>> noise activities and short drop outs can get very erratic and these
>>things just keep supplying with no problem.
>
>
>
> You aren't running them off a small generator that drifts in
> frequency. Also, some UPS check the line frequency to make sure the
> supply is stable before switching. Unless you are using a very
> expensive (And large) online UPS it is still running off the line input,
> through a simple LC line frequency filter to remove line noise. Small
> and cheap UPS are all off line design, so all you are doing is switching
> to battery backup to replace the occasional missing cycles. Read the
> documentation of your UPS to see what you are really using.
>
>
Let me explain here.
the units we use derive their source from the inverter internally
which is battery back-up. the AC does nothing but keep the battery
charged and supply the inverter.
The cycle change does not effect these units, voltage dips do not
effect these units. I've repaired 2 of these units due to mother nature
whacking our facility. It did nothing but take out the fuse between the
charging circuit and the battery. the battery absorb along with the TVS
units the over surge which force the fuse link to open and also took out
the charging circuit how ever. The unit keeps on operating just fine for
it's preset time before it shuts off.
The charging system is a very simply 60 hz xformer with a bridge, a
couple of resistors, TVS and fuse protection. They're nice little bricks
that sit on the din rail..
Argue all you want, facts are facts.
--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
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Author: Michael A. TerrellDate: 21:43 18-07-07
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Jamie wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> > Jamie wrote:
> >
> >>We use industrial mini ups supplies on our PLC's at work, they work
> >>just fine. They are not intended to run the PLC for any length of time,
> >>just produce a nice sine wave 120 V AC . the unit actually shuts off if
> >>it detects constant power loss after a set time on the front panel..
> >> we set ours on most for aprox 1 min. and will restart when power is
> >>returned for at least 1 min .
> >> noise activities and short drop outs can get very erratic and these
> >>things just keep supplying with no problem.
> >
> >
> >
> > You aren't running them off a small generator that drifts in
> > frequency. Also, some UPS check the line frequency to make sure the
> > supply is stable before switching. Unless you are using a very
> > expensive (And large) online UPS it is still running off the line input,
> > through a simple LC line frequency filter to remove line noise. Small
> > and cheap UPS are all off line design, so all you are doing is switching
> > to battery backup to replace the occasional missing cycles. Read the
> > documentation of your UPS to see what you are really using.
> >
> >
> Let me explain here.
> the units we use derive their source from the inverter internally
> which is battery back-up. the AC does nothing but keep the battery
> charged and supply the inverter.
> The cycle change does not effect these units, voltage dips do not
> effect these units. I've repaired 2 of these units due to mother nature
> whacking our facility. It did nothing but take out the fuse between the
> charging circuit and the battery. the battery absorb along with the TVS
> units the over surge which force the fuse link to open and also took out
> the charging circuit how ever. The unit keeps on operating just fine for
> it's preset time before it shuts off.
> The charging system is a very simply 60 hz xformer with a bridge, a
> couple of resistors, TVS and fuse protection. They're nice little bricks
> that sit on the din rail..
>
> Argue all you want, facts are facts.
So, these don't even try to match the line frequency or phase before
they switch over? What a nasty design.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Author: CptDondoDate: 11:22 19-07-07
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
>
> So, these don't even try to match the line frequency or phase before
> they switch over? What a nasty design.
>
>
I think you're missing the point. If I understand this correctly, there
is no "switch".
The "UPS" takes AC to DC, charges a battery. Then there is an inverter
that takes DC from the battery and provides AC.
There is no AC - AC connection or switch; the unit is *always* fed from
the inverter, and *never* from the grid.
--Yan
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Author: Michael A. TerrellDate: 13:31 19-07-07
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CptDondo wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > So, these don't even try to match the line frequency or phase before
> > they switch over? What a nasty design.
> >
> >
>
> I think you're missing the point. If I understand this correctly, there
> is no "switch".
Sorry, but you don't understand.
> The "UPS" takes AC to DC, charges a battery. Then there is an inverter
> that takes DC from the battery and provides AC.
You are missing the point. There are TWO types of UPS. Off line and
on line. Small UPS systems are typically off line type, where they do
switch the inverter on and connect it to the load when there is a
problem.
> There is no AC - AC connection or switch; the unit is *always* fed from
> the inverter, and *never* from the grid.
Only in 'on line' UPS systemms. BTW, the smallest online UPS I've
seen was 15 KW. Even then, there were manual switches to bypass the
system, for maintanence.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Author: Michael A. TerrellDate: 13:36 19-07-07
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CptDondo wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > So, these don't even try to match the line frequency or phase before
> > they switch over? What a nasty design.
> >
> >
>
> I think you're missing the point. If I understand this correctly, there
> is no "switch".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply has a very
simplified explaination of most types of UPS.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Author: CptDondoDate: 16:03 19-07-07
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> Only in 'on line' UPS systemms. BTW, the smallest online UPS I've
> seen was 15 KW. Even then, there were manual switches to bypass the
> system, for maintanence.
A bit of googling will find them as small as 500va.
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Author: JamieDate: 18:04 19-07-07
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CptDondo wrote:
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> So, these don't even try to match the line frequency or phase before
>> they switch over? What a nasty design.
>>
>>
>
> I think you're missing the point. If I understand this correctly, there
> is no "switch".
>
> The "UPS" takes AC to DC, charges a battery. Then there is an inverter
> that takes DC from the battery and provides AC.
>
> There is no AC - AC connection or switch; the unit is *always* fed from
> the inverter, and *never* from the grid.
>
> --Yan
I'm glad some one understands it. :)
--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
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Author: JamieDate: 18:11 19-07-07
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> Jamie wrote:
>
>>Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Jamie wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>We use industrial mini ups supplies on our PLC's at work, they work
>>>>just fine. They are not intended to run the PLC for any length of time,
>>>>just produce a nice sine wave 120 V AC . the unit actually shuts off if
>>>>it detects constant power loss after a set time on the front panel..
>>>> we set ours on most for aprox 1 min. and will restart when power is
>>>>returned for at least 1 min .
>>>> noise activities and short drop outs can get very erratic and these
>>>>things just keep supplying with no problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You aren't running them off a small generator that drifts in
>>>frequency. Also, some UPS check the line frequency to make sure the
>>>supply is stable before switching. Unless you are using a very
>>>expensive (And large) online UPS it is still running off the line input,
>>>through a simple LC line frequency filter to remove line noise. Small
>>>and cheap UPS are all off line design, so all you are doing is switching
>>>to battery backup to replace the occasional missing cycles. Read the
>>>documentation of your UPS to see what you are really using.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Let me explain here.
>> the units we use derive their source from the inverter internally
>>which is battery back-up. the AC does nothing but keep the battery
>>charged and supply the inverter.
>> The cycle change does not effect these units, voltage dips do not
>>effect these units. I've repaired 2 of these units due to mother nature
>>whacking our facility. It did nothing but take out the fuse between the
>>charging circuit and the battery. the battery absorb along with the TVS
>>units the over surge which force the fuse link to open and also took out
>>the charging circuit how ever. The unit keeps on operating just fine for
>>it's preset time before it shuts off.
>> The charging system is a very simply 60 hz xformer with a bridge, a
>>couple of resistors, TVS and fuse protection. They're nice little bricks
>>that sit on the din rail..
>>
>> Argue all you want, facts are facts.
>
>
>
> So, these don't even try to match the line frequency or phase before
> they switch over? What a nasty design.
>
>
No , they don't match the line freq. the output is from the inverter at
all times. the inverter is operating from a DC supply which is the
battery which gets charged from the line..
Our units we use have an option to turn off after a set time when the
UPS has determine that line voltage is absent and not just being
erratic. We do this to prevent some sensitive systems like PLC's,UC etc,
to shut down and restart properly when power is lost.
The one we use for our Wonderware is connected to the serial port to
instruct it to shut down so that windows is properly terminated before
it losses power.
--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
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Author: Michael A. TerrellDate: 21:27 19-07-07
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CptDondo wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> > Only in 'on line' UPS systemms. BTW, the smallest online UPS I've
> > seen was 15 KW. Even then, there were manual switches to bypass the
> > system, for maintanence.
>
> A bit of googling will find them as small as 500va.
At what price and efficiency?
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Author: Michael A. TerrellDate: 21:28 19-07-07
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Jamie wrote:
>
> No , they don't match the line freq. the output is from the inverter at
> all times. the inverter is operating from a DC supply which is the
> battery which gets charged from the line..
That can cause problems with some equipment but if you want to use
junk, feel free.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Author: Michael A. TerrellDate: 22:41 21-07-07
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Charlie Siegrist wrote:
>
> The Falcon SSG500 has an efficiency of 85%, and might be the model Cap'n
> Doodo is referencing. Couldn't find a price in a cursory search, but it
> seems Allis-Chalmers is pleased with the product:
>
>
<http://www.oilonline.com/news/headlines/firms_faces/20070612.Falcon%E2%80%99s.23797.as
p>
>
> Brings to mind the old saw, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."
That's why most people have to settle for off-line UPS equipment. I
could have bought a used online sine wave UPS big enough to power
everything in my house for $100. It was almost two tons, and only
needed about $5000 worth of new batteries that had to be replaced every
two years. So, it would have cost over 2.5 times my current electric
bill, plus the cost of extra electricity for air condoning.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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