Author: RadiumDate: 21:17 16-04-07
|
|
Hi:
Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?
If so would this brain be able to link to actual human brain and
transmit/receive/process/record/playback electroneural signals?
Thanks,
Radium
|
|
|
|
Author: Bob DayDate: 22:18 16-04-07
|
|
"Radium" <glucegen1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176772620.851373.24250@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Hi:
>
> Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
> exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
> signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?
1. I don't think that anyone has even the vaguest clue.
2. It's not even known whether the brain's only signaling
method is via electrochemical ionic means.
>
> If so would this brain be able to link to actual human brain and
> transmit/receive/process/record/playback electroneural signals?
Could a square circle fly? You're asking about the properties
of something that, as of yet, is purely imaginary.
-- Bob Day
|
|
|
|
Author: r normanDate: 22:24 16-04-07
|
|
On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 02:18:11 GMT, "Bob Day" <xxxxxx@yyyyyy.com> wrote:
>
>"Radium" <glucegen1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176772620.851373.24250@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> Hi:
>>
>> Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
>> exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
>> signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?
>
>1. I don't think that anyone has even the vaguest clue.
>
>2. It's not even known whether the brain's only signaling
> method is via electrochemical ionic means.
>
>>
>> If so would this brain be able to link to actual human brain and
>> transmit/receive/process/record/playback electroneural signals?
>
>Could a square circle fly? You're asking about the properties
>of something that, as of yet, is purely imaginary.
>
Actually it is quite well known that the brain's only signaling method
is most definitely not electrochemical ionic. The molecular and
cellular biology of events at the synapse are quite critical as is the
whole activity of the cell in gene expression, protein synthesis and
degradation, up and down regulation of all the machinery involved and
on and on and on. A computer replication of electrical signals is
but a very remote cartoon model of real nerve activity.
|
|
|
|
Author: DonaldDate: 22:30 16-04-07
|
|
Radium wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
> exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
> signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?
>
> If so would this brain be able to link to actual human brain and
> transmit/receive/process/record/playback electroneural signals?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium
>
Someone said "If you can imagine it, you can create it" (Don't remember who)
We (current technology) do not have the imagination yet.
And we will not, is our life time.
donald
|
|
|
|
Author: RadiumDate: 00:25 17-04-07
|
|
On Apr 16, 7:24 pm, r norman <r_s_norman@_comcast.net> wrote:
> Actually it is quite well known that the brain's only signaling method
> is most definitely not electrochemical ionic.
True. Many proteins are involved.
> The molecular and
> cellular biology of events at the synapse are quite critical as is the
> whole activity of the cell in gene expression, protein synthesis and
> degradation, up and down regulation of all the machinery involved and
> on and on and on.
Much of the transmission, reception, processing, recording, playback
of neural signals take place in the form of different types proteins
and difference concentration and whose concentrations change in rate
and extent. It is common for the neural "signals" to consist of such
protein chemical reactions. This is mostly non-electric.
> A computer replication of electrical signals is
> but a very remote cartoon model of real nerve activity.
But couldn't the electrical equivalents of those neurobiological
events be designed?
|
|
|
|
Author: BenjaminDate: 00:26 17-04-07
|
|
"Radium" <glucegen1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176772620.851373.24250@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
| Hi:
|
| Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
| exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
| signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?
| [...]
Yes, but radically-non-standard
programming methods are nec-
essary.
Radically-non-standard 'electron-
ics' are necessary if you want to
do it fast.
I'd explain, but it's no-longer 'ap-
propriate' for me to do so here.
k. p. collins
|
|
|
|
Author: Entertained by my own EIMCDate: 00:31 17-04-07
|
|
"r norman" <r_s_norman@_comcast.net> wrote in message
news:8nb8231dljeph4q2bbv07kbe09lr3q2g0n@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 02:18:11 GMT, "Bob Day" <xxxxxx@yyyyyy.com>
wrote:
>
>>
>>"Radium" <glucegen1@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1176772620.851373.24250@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>> Hi:
>>>
>>> Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
>>> exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
>>> signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?
>>
>>1. I don't think that anyone has even the vaguest clue.
>>
>>2. It's not even known whether the brain's only signaling
>> method is via electrochemical ionic means.
>>
>>>
>>> If so would this brain be able to link to actual human brain and
>>> transmit/receive/process/record/playback electroneural signals?
>>
>>Could a square circle fly? You're asking about the properties
>>of something that, as of yet, is purely imaginary.
>>
>
> Actually it is quite well known that the brain's only signaling method
> is most definitely not electrochemical ionic. The molecular and
> cellular biology of events at the synapse are quite critical as is the
> whole activity of the cell in gene expression, protein synthesis and
> degradation, up and down regulation of all the machinery involved and
> on and on and on. A computer replication of electrical signals is
> but a very remote cartoon model of real nerve activity.
>
Congratulations for having just written something quite EPT. :-)
P
|
|
|
|
Author: konyDate: 04:07 17-04-07
|
|
On 16 Apr 2007 18:17:00 -0700, Radium <glucegen1@gmail.com>
wrote:
>Hi:
>
>Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
>exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
>signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?
Your daydreams are off-topic in some groups posted, please
limit them to the appropriate groups. Thanks.
To those who aren't yet aware of Radium's posting style, it
is a bit more like a kid with a simple idea that is just
expanded on in daydream fashion without any attempt to focus
on the minor details which are often show-stoppers. Such a
basic consideration of requirments would be the norm for
most people but Radium is not developing the ideas to a
reasonable extent before throwing them out there for the
public to debunkify... which wastes everyone's time in the
end.
|
|
|
|
Author: r normanDate: 07:57 17-04-07
|
|
On 16 Apr 2007 21:25:28 -0700, Radium <glucegen1@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Apr 16, 7:24 pm, r norman <r_s_norman@_comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Actually it is quite well known that the brain's only signaling method
>> is most definitely not electrochemical ionic.
>
>True. Many proteins are involved.
>
>> The molecular and
>> cellular biology of events at the synapse are quite critical as is the
>> whole activity of the cell in gene expression, protein synthesis and
>> degradation, up and down regulation of all the machinery involved and
>> on and on and on.
>
>Much of the transmission, reception, processing, recording, playback
>of neural signals take place in the form of different types proteins
>and difference concentration and whose concentrations change in rate
>and extent. It is common for the neural "signals" to consist of such
>protein chemical reactions. This is mostly non-electric.
>
>> A computer replication of electrical signals is
>> but a very remote cartoon model of real nerve activity.
>
>But couldn't the electrical equivalents of those neurobiological
>events be designed?
Schrodinger's equation (or whatever the appropriate physics might be)
can be set up with suitable boundary conditions to compute anything
and everything that happens in the universe. The status of such a
"simulation" is more properly a subject for late night bull sessions
in a college dorm. Creating an "a purely electronic brain", as in the
subject line, is at this time just as silly a notion.
The AI people predicted computer speech recognition decades ago. The
predictions about artificial brains are not nearly as accurate.
|
|
|
|
Author: The Question Guy?Date: 08:33 17-04-07
|
|
Go away from Me.
I don't know anything anymore.
Not possible man?
no way - Hippo Breathe.
"Radium" <glucegen1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176772620.851373.24250@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Hi:
>
> Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
> exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
> signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?
>
> If so would this brain be able to link to actual human brain and
> transmit/receive/process/record/playback electroneural signals?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium
>
|
|
|
|
Author: Josip AlmasiDate: 09:11 17-04-07
|
|
Radium wrote:
>
> But couldn't the electrical equivalents of those neurobiological
> events be designed?
In principle - maybe.
Reality is different thing: more we know, more obstacles we encounter.
Say, when an electron jumps from a neurotransmitter to a receptor or
vice versa, it's a quantum effect. And it's influenced by brain's own EM
field. Once you start thinking EM field, you get to the points where
zeno effect bites you, or say ionic structures form quantum neural
networks; so to do that properly, you'd need a quantum computer size of
a brain, in order to calculate FFT in planck time IOW in no time:)
Don't take this too seriously nor too precise; but the answer is simple
- only hardware that can emulate a brain is a brain.
BTW Radius I see you got a number of interesting and precise answers on
various groups. Good thing with your crossposting is that you got rare
interdisciplinary view on the topic.
Would you care to make a compilation of answers and put it on a web page?
Regards...
|
|
|
|
Author: r normanDate: 10:15 17-04-07
|
|
On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:11:12 +0200, Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org>
wrote:
>Radium wrote:
>>
>> But couldn't the electrical equivalents of those neurobiological
>> events be designed?
>
>In principle - maybe.
>Reality is different thing: more we know, more obstacles we encounter.
>Say, when an electron jumps from a neurotransmitter to a receptor or
>vice versa, it's a quantum effect. And it's influenced by brain's own EM
>field. Once you start thinking EM field, you get to the points where
>zeno effect bites you, or say ionic structures form quantum neural
>networks; so to do that properly, you'd need a quantum computer size of
>a brain, in order to calculate FFT in planck time IOW in no time:)
>Don't take this too seriously nor too precise; but the answer is simple
>- only hardware that can emulate a brain is a brain.
>
>BTW Radius I see you got a number of interesting and precise answers on
>various groups. Good thing with your crossposting is that you got rare
>interdisciplinary view on the topic.
>Would you care to make a compilation of answers and put it on a web page?
>
>Regards...
Unfortunately, this particular view of how biological machinery works
won't get too far on bionet.neuroscience which is supposed to be
restricted to actual science.
|
|
|
|
Author: Entertained by my own EIMCDate: 11:14 17-04-07
|
|
"Josip Almasi" <joe@vrspace.org> wrote in message
news:f02gva$qlk$1@news1.xnet.hr...
> Radium wrote:
>>
>> But couldn't the electrical equivalents of those neurobiological
>> events be designed?
>
> In principle - maybe.
> Reality is different thing: more we know, more obstacles we encounter.
> Say, when an electron jumps from a neurotransmitter to a receptor or vice
> versa, it's a quantum effect. And it's influenced by brain's own EM field.
> Once you start thinking EM field, you get to the points where zeno effect
> bites you, or say ionic structures form quantum neural networks; so to do
> that properly, you'd need a quantum computer size of a brain, in order to
> calculate FFT in planck time IOW in no time:)
> Don't take this too seriously nor too precise; but the answer is simple -
> only hardware that can emulate a brain is a brain.
The position of opinion expressed by Josip Almasi is EPT-aligned.
Hence it is also science-aligned, and something that I have no qualms
accepting as a predigested and pure enough reflection of by the process of
Science (as most broadly and completely defined) securely established
principles, theories, insights, correlations (and etcetera suchlike
'informational matter').
Accordingly I also regard what J. Almasi wrote as a pleasant whiff (or
sample) from an unofficial "S_EPT_IC think tank".
IOW:
I agree, and feel good to do so. %-}
|
|
|
|
Author: Rich GriseDate: 12:01 17-04-07
|
|
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:25:28 -0700, Radium wrote:
> On Apr 16, 7:24 pm, r norman <r_s_norman@_comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Actually it is quite well known that the brain's only signaling method
>> is most definitely not electrochemical ionic.
>
> True. Many proteins are involved.
>
>> The molecular and
>> cellular biology of events at the synapse are quite critical as is the
>> whole activity of the cell in gene expression, protein synthesis and
>> degradation, up and down regulation of all the machinery involved and
>> on and on and on.
>
> Much of the transmission, reception, processing, recording, playback
> of neural signals take place in the form of different types proteins
> and difference concentration and whose concentrations change in rate
> and extent. It is common for the neural "signals" to consist of such
> protein chemical reactions. This is mostly non-electric.
>
>> A computer replication of electrical signals is
>> but a very remote cartoon model of real nerve activity.
>
> But couldn't the electrical equivalents of those neurobiological
> events be designed?
It's cheaper to just use a real brain.
Cheers!
Rich
|
|
|
|
Author: Jerry AvinsDate: 21:21 17-04-07
|
|
John H. wrote:
> There are a number of books out there saying this will be possible in our
> lifetime. Typically written by AI people but I think the whole shebang got a
> big kickalong with the author William Gibson many years ago. It became a bit
> of a fashion to dream about uploading and the like. The idea remains current
> and sufficiently popular to make me think about taking the idea of
"memes"
> seriously. It's fun to play with though. If you were uploaded while still
> alive which you would be you? The uploaded one would experience life
> differently from you and hence would soon no longer be you so which you
> would be you?
John,
You wrote this message tomorrow. You might think about resetting your clock.
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
|
|
|
|
Author: JamieDate: 21:47 17-04-07
|
|
Rich Grise wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:25:28 -0700, Radium wrote:
>
>>On Apr 16, 7:24 pm, r norman <r_s_norman@_comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Actually it is quite well known that the brain's only signaling method
>>>is most definitely not electrochemical ionic.
>>
>>True. Many proteins are involved.
>>
>>
>>>The molecular and
>>>cellular biology of events at the synapse are quite critical as is the
>>>whole activity of the cell in gene expression, protein synthesis and
>>>degradation, up and down regulation of all the machinery involved and
>>>on and on and on.
>>
>>Much of the transmission, reception, processing, recording, playback
>>of neural signals take place in the form of different types proteins
>>and difference concentration and whose concentrations change in rate
>>and extent. It is common for the neural "signals" to consist of such
>>protein chemical reactions. This is mostly non-electric.
>>
>>
>>>A computer replication of electrical signals is
>>>but a very remote cartoon model of real nerve activity.
>>
>>But couldn't the electrical equivalents of those neurobiological
>>events be designed?
>
>
> It's cheaper to just use a real brain.
>
> Cheers!
> Rich
>
those might be hard to come by :)
--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
|
|
|
|
Author: John H.Date: 00:15 18-04-07
|
|
There are a number of books out there saying this will be possible in our
lifetime. Typically written by AI people but I think the whole shebang got a
big kickalong with the author William Gibson many years ago. It became a bit
of a fashion to dream about uploading and the like. The idea remains current
and sufficiently popular to make me think about taking the idea of "memes"
seriously. It's fun to play with though. If you were uploaded while still
alive which you would be you? The uploaded one would experience life
differently from you and hence would soon no longer be you so which you
would be you?
"Radium" <glucegen1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176772620.851373.24250@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Hi:
>
> Will it ever be possible to make a purely-electronic brain that is
> exactly like a human brain except that its uses purely-electric
> signals instead of electrochemical ionic signals?
>
> If so would this brain be able to link to actual human brain and
> transmit/receive/process/record/playback electroneural signals?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium
>
|
|
|
|
Author: BenjaminDate: 00:53 18-04-07
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author: John H.Date: 01:44 18-04-07
|
|
Nonetheless Jerry is right. I replaced my power supply recently, cmos dead,
didn't reset date right. For a short time at least ahead by a day. Will
never happen again ... .
Thanks Jerry.
"Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:qvhVh.3545$BS2.2456@trndny01...
> "Jerry Avins" <jya@ieee.org> wrote in message
> news:icWdncTWgqQs77jbnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@rcn.net...
> | [...]
> | You wrote this message tomorrow. You
> | might think about resetting your clock.
> |
> | Jerry
>
> John H. is in Austrailia.
>
> "Date-line" thing(?)
>
> ken
>
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
On Apr 17, 8:01 am, Rich Grise <r...@example.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:25:28 -0700, Radium wrote:
> > On Apr 16, 7:24 pm, r norman <r_s_norman@_comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> Actually it is quite well known that the brain's only signaling method
> >> is most definitely not electrochemical ionic.
>
> > True. Many proteins are involved.
>
> >> The molecular and
> >> cellular biology of events at the synapse are quite critical as is the
> >> whole activity of the cell in gene expression, protein synthesis and
> >> degradation, up and down regulation of all the machinery involved and
> >> on and on and on.
>
<snip>
> It's cheaper to just use a real brain.
>
> Cheers!
> Rich
Not _everyone_ has access to one.
G
|
|
|
|
|
