Legal to sell DC-DC Converter *Kits*?

Started by Paul March 5, 2009
"Paul" <energymover@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1a8d8698-3f87-4096-8bbf-0b91c63288f4@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Hi, > > Is it legal to sell a kit that includes all of the parts, > instructions, and diagrams so someone could build there own DC-DC > Converter kit? I believe it requires certifications (e.g., UL) to make > & sell DC-DC Converters, so someone suggested selling kits until I > make enough $ to get the DC-DC Converter fully UL listed. The kit > would also include the DC batteries and the chassis. > > This seems a little iffy to me because what if there's a flaw in my > circuit design, someone buys my kit that includes all of the > directions and parts (everything) to make the DC-DC Converter, they > build it, and it burns down their house? That might be a guaranteed > lawsuit win for them, no? > > Thanks, > Paul
Sci.electronics.basics.law
On 5 Mar., 23:22, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:1a8d8698-3f87-4096-8bbf-0b91c63288f4@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > > Hi, > > > Is it legal to sell a kit that includes all of the parts, > > instructions, and diagrams so someone could build there own DC-DC > > Converter kit? I believe it requires certifications (e.g., UL) to make > > & sell DC-DC Converters, so someone suggested selling kits until I > > make enough $ to get the DC-DC Converter fully UL listed. The kit > > would also include the DC batteries and the chassis. > > > This seems a little iffy to me because what if there's a flaw in my > > circuit design, someone buys my kit that includes all of the > > directions and parts (everything) to make the DC-DC Converter, they > > build it, and it burns down their house? That might be a guaranteed > > lawsuit win for them, no? > > > Thanks, > > Paul > > Hi Paul > I always find it quite sad when people start getting nervous and worry about > these sorts of things. > I assume you live in the sue-happy US of A? > Really, don't worry about it. Design it properly (heat dissipation, overload > protection etc) and the chances of it burning down someone's home is zero. > How much power are we talking about here?, and what kind of batteries? Mains > power devices are another level, but if your device is not mains powered > then there is much less to worry about. > > As others have said, the chances of someone suing you when you don't have > any insurance is very low, and that's on top of the chances of it burning > down someones house. What you have to worry about is people returning the > kit "under warranty" because they assembled it wrong and it doesn't work, > they'll think it's *your* responsibility to fix it. I've been selling kits > for my magazine projects for over 15 years, and that happens occasionally, > you just have to wear it. > > Your chances are much higher of someone suing you when they trip and knock > their head in your front garden. > > Just sell your kits and be happy. > > BTW, here is my latest kit coming out shortly:http://www.alternatezone.com/electronics/ucurrent/ > > Regards > Dave.- Skjul tekst i anførselstegn - > > - Vis tekst i anførselstegn -
Hi Dave Cannot resist it, sorry. You site specs states:
>3 Current ranges: >+/- 0-300mA (70µV / mA burden voltage typical) >+/- 0-1000µA (10µV / uA burden voltage) >+/- 0-1000nA (10µV / nA burden voltage)
A lot of typical numbers, ok thats ok for hobbyists ;-)
>Output Voltage Units: >1mV/mA >1mV/µA >1mV/nA >Resolution (nA range): 100pA (3.5digit meter), 10pA (4.5 digit meter) >Accuracy (typical): <0.2% on µA and nA ranges, <0.5% on mA range. >Output Offset Voltage: Negligible on 4.5 digit meter
Neglible. He he - never seen that in a spec before
>Bandwidth: 2KHz nominal (+/-0.1dB) >Temperature Drift: Insignificant over normal ambient range
Insignificant ;-) You should be a sales person (perhaps you are)
>Noise: < -90dBV >THD: < -60dB >Battery: CR2032 Lithium coin cell >Battery Life: >200 hours (LED OFF), >50 hours (LED ON)
Regards Klaus
"David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> skrev i meddelelsen 
news:OmXrl.21906$ur1.14315@newsfe15.iad...

> Really, don't worry about it.
I would say: DO worry about it, at least enough to set up a business to isolate yourself from any claims; A collegue of mine is being sued+harassed endlessly by some c*nt he once *helped* with some work and fell out with over not getting paid even the expenses for helping! If you are neither working as an employee, nor as a business you are sortof in the shite basically with endless legal possibilities of draining your time and money through the courts.
On Mar 6, 9:59 am, Klaus Kragelund <klausk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 5 Mar., 23:22, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > "Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message > > >news:1a8d8698-3f87-4096-8bbf-0b91c63288f4@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com... > > > > Hi, > > > > Is it legal to sell a kit that includes all of the parts, > > > instructions, and diagrams so someone could build there own DC-DC > > > Converter kit? I believe it requires certifications (e.g., UL) to make > > > & sell DC-DC Converters, so someone suggested selling kits until I > > > make enough $ to get the DC-DC Converter fully UL listed. The kit > > > would also include the DC batteries and the chassis. > > > > This seems a little iffy to me because what if there's a flaw in my > > > circuit design, someone buys my kit that includes all of the > > > directions and parts (everything) to make the DC-DC Converter, they > > > build it, and it burns down their house? That might be a guaranteed > > > lawsuit win for them, no? > > > > Thanks, > > > Paul > > > Hi Paul > > I always find it quite sad when people start getting nervous and worry about > > these sorts of things. > > I assume you live in the sue-happy US of A? > > Really, don't worry about it. Design it properly (heat dissipation, overload > > protection etc) and the chances of it burning down someone's home is zero. > > How much power are we talking about here?, and what kind of batteries? Mains > > power devices are another level, but if your device is not mains powered > > then there is much less to worry about. > > > As others have said, the chances of someone suing you when you don't have > > any insurance is very low, and that's on top of the chances of it burning > > down someones house. What you have to worry about is people returning the > > kit "under warranty" because they assembled it wrong and it doesn't work, > > they'll think it's *your* responsibility to fix it. I've been selling kits > > for my magazine projects for over 15 years, and that happens occasionally, > > you just have to wear it. > > > Your chances are much higher of someone suing you when they trip and knock > > their head in your front garden. > > > Just sell your kits and be happy. > > > BTW, here is my latest kit coming out shortly:http://www.alternatezone.com/electronics/ucurrent/ > > > Regards > > Dave.- Skjul tekst i anførselstegn - > > > - Vis tekst i anførselstegn - > > Hi Dave > > Cannot resist it, sorry. You site specs states: > > >3 Current ranges: > >+/- 0-300mA (70µV / mA burden voltage typical) > >+/- 0-1000µA (10µV / uA burden voltage) > >+/- 0-1000nA (10µV / nA burden voltage) > > A lot of typical numbers, ok thats ok for hobbyists ;-) > > >Output Voltage Units: > >1mV/mA > >1mV/µA > >1mV/nA > >Resolution (nA range): 100pA (3.5digit meter), 10pA (4.5 digit meter) > >Accuracy (typical): <0.2% on µA and nA ranges, <0.5% on mA range. > >Output Offset Voltage: Negligible on 4.5 digit meter > > Neglible. He he - never seen that in a spec before > > >Bandwidth: 2KHz nominal (+/-0.1dB) > >Temperature Drift: Insignificant over normal ambient range > > Insignificant ;-)  You should be a sales person (perhaps you are) > > >Noise: < -90dBV > >THD: < -60dB > >Battery: CR2032 Lithium coin cell > >Battery Life: >200 hours (LED OFF), >50 hours (LED ON) > > Regards > > Klaus
my friend about movies for basketball game tonight 6:30 to 9
On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 17:29:14 +0100, "Frithiof Jensen"
<frithiof.jensen@diespammerdie.jensen.tdcadsl.dk> wrote:

> >"David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> skrev i meddelelsen >news:OmXrl.21906$ur1.14315@newsfe15.iad... > >> Really, don't worry about it. > >I would say: DO worry about it, at least enough to set up a business to >isolate yourself from any claims;
Again, in the US such isolation is virtually impossible to obtain without a public company. If the courts determine you were negligent you will be liable. The only way to absolutely avoid liability is to both have the company a publicly owned corporation, and to NOT work for the company.
> A collegue of mine is being sued+harassed >endlessly by some c*nt he once *helped* with some work and fell out with >over not getting paid even the expenses for helping! > >If you are neither working as an employee, nor as a business you are sortof >in the shite basically with endless legal possibilities of draining your >time and money through the courts.
"Klaus Kragelund" <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:06071cbb-6459-4363-9c83-
>Hi Dave >Cannot resist it, sorry. You site specs states: >>3 Current ranges: >>+/- 0-300mA (70µV / mA burden voltage typical) >>+/- 0-1000µA (10µV / uA burden voltage) >>+/- 0-1000nA (10µV / nA burden voltage) > >A lot of typical numbers, ok thats ok for hobbyists ;-)
Typical? Show me one multimeter that even comes close to those burden voltages. Dave.
Paul wrote:
> Hi, > > Is it legal to sell a kit that includes all of the parts, > instructions, and diagrams so someone could build there own DC-DC > Converter kit?
Yes. But it's pointless. Nobody sells kits any more, other than in very tiny volume. It's cheaper to have the whole thing assembled in Asia. Also, in an assembly plant, surface mount components, which are cheaper, can be used. John Nagle
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 08:41:07 -0800 (PST), Paul <energymover@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Hi, > >Is it legal to sell a kit that includes all of the parts, >instructions, and diagrams so someone could build there own DC-DC >Converter kit?
--- Yes. ---
>I believe it requires certifications (e.g., UL) to make >& sell DC-DC Converters,
--- Why? UL is a testing laboratory, not a regulatory agency, so they can't keep you from doing whatever you want to.
>so someone suggested selling kits until I >make enough $ to get the DC-DC Converter fully UL listed. The kit >would also include the DC batteries and the chassis. > >This seems a little iffy to me because what if there's a flaw in my >circuit design, someone buys my kit that includes all of the >directions and parts (everything) to make the DC-DC Converter, they >build it, and it burns down their house? That might be a guaranteed >lawsuit win for them, no?
--- You'd be better off getting legal advice from a lawyer rather than the likes of us.;) JF
On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 11:18:31 -0800, John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> wrote:

>Paul wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Is it legal to sell a kit that includes all of the parts, >> instructions, and diagrams so someone could build there own DC-DC >> Converter kit? > > Yes. But it's pointless. > > Nobody sells kits any more, other than in very tiny volume. It's >cheaper to have the whole thing assembled in Asia. > > Also, in an assembly plant, surface mount components, which are >cheaper, can be used. > > John Nagle
SMT can also be used in kits, ya big dopey ditz.
John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> wrote in 
news:49b2c08a$0$1666$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:

> Paul wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Is it legal to sell a kit that includes all of the parts, >> instructions, and diagrams so someone could build there own DC-DC >> Converter kit? > > Yes. But it's pointless. > > Nobody sells kits any more, other than in very tiny volume. It's > cheaper to have the whole thing assembled in Asia. > > Also, in an assembly plant, surface mount components, which are > cheaper, can be used. > > John Nagle >
Uh,hobbyists use SMD,too. I've used them. It's not that hard,you just need the right tools. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:16:20 +1000, "David L. Jones"
<altzone@gmail.com> wrote:

><proteusiiv@gmail.com> wrote in message news:be775491-3c9c-4a58-8153- >> >>CUTE BUT IS IT PRACTICAL > >Yes, unlike your multimeter at measuring current accurately in low voltage >circuits.
How is this shunt better than the shunt in the multimeter?
<proteusiiv@gmail.com> wrote in message news:be775491-3c9c-4a58-8153-
> >CUTE BUT IS IT PRACTICAL
Yes, unlike your multimeter at measuring current accurately in low voltage circuits. Dave.
On Mar 5, 6:22 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:1a8d8698-3f87-4096-8bbf-0b91c63288f4@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > > Hi, > > > Is it legal to sell a kit that includes all of the parts, > > instructions, and diagrams so someone could build there own DC-DC > > Converter kit? I believe it requires certifications (e.g., UL) to make > > & sell DC-DC Converters, so someone suggested selling kits until I > > make enough $ to get the DC-DC Converter fully UL listed. The kit > > would also include the DC batteries and the chassis. > > > This seems a little iffy to me because what if there's a flaw in my > > circuit design, someone buys my kit that includes all of the > > directions and parts (everything) to make the DC-DC Converter, they > > build it, and it burns down their house? That might be a guaranteed > > lawsuit win for them, no? > > > Thanks, > > Paul > > Hi Paul > I always find it quite sad when people start getting nervous and worry about > these sorts of things. > I assume you live in the sue-happy US of A? > Really, don't worry about it. Design it properly (heat dissipation, overload > protection etc) and the chances of it burning down someone's home is zero. > How much power are we talking about here?, and what kind of batteries? Mains > power devices are another level, but if your device is not mains powered > then there is much less to worry about. > > As others have said, the chances of someone suing you when you don't have > any insurance is very low, and that's on top of the chances of it burning > down someones house. What you have to worry about is people returning the > kit "under warranty" because they assembled it wrong and it doesn't work, > they'll think it's *your* responsibility to fix it. I've been selling kits > for my magazine projects for over 15 years, and that happens occasionally, > you just have to wear it. > > Your chances are much higher of someone suing you when they trip and knock > their head in your front garden. > > Just sell your kits and be happy. > > BTW, here is my latest kit coming out shortly:http://www.alternatezone.com/electronics/ucurrent/ > > Regards > Dave.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
CUTE BUT IS IT PRACTICAL I AM PROTEUS

Wecan do it wrote:

> BTW: Part of the UL testing regime would ( used to when I > checked it 25 years ago, require a hot cup of oil be poured > into your supply and not ignite. Fun with toasters.
I found it hilarious when I first came across UL. I have an article on it I could perhaps post in abse. Graham
On Mar 5, 12:41 pm, Paul <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, > > Is it legal to sell a kit that includes all of the parts, > instructions, and diagrams so someone could build there own DC-DC > Converter kit? I believe it requires certifications (e.g., UL) to make > & sell DC-DC Converters, so someone suggested selling kits until I > make enough $ to get the DC-DC Converter fully UL listed. The kit > would also include the DC batteries and the chassis.
It's legal to sell kits. Don't assemble it at all. Assuming you have a disclaimer of liability statement prominently displayed within the purchasing process, it is the person who builds the device who assumes liability. Once you start preassembling them, UL listing or not it is you who assumes liability, a good insurance policy should be in place by that point.
> > This seems a little iffy to me because what if there's a flaw in my > circuit design, someone buys my kit that includes all of the > directions and parts (everything) to make the DC-DC Converter, they > build it, and it burns down their house? That might be a guaranteed > lawsuit win for them, no? > > Thanks, > Paul
Nothing is bulletproof, nor do you have any reasonable guarantee that even if your design is perfect, that someone won't improperly assemble it or spill a bottle of liquid inside, throw it in the bathtub, knock it off a shelf and then try to use it attached to a kite during an electrical storm. All you can do in that regard is put thought into it's ruggedness and test it as much as your conscience demands. Spontaneous failure and fire can usually be prevented with basic steps like a good strain relief at the chassis, fuse(s), adequate clearance between parts and cementing down anything prone to flop around due to it's height vs weight (though in this latter case, it's part of the instructions for the assembler). Test it in high ambient temperature conditions, power cycle the heck out of it. Drop it on the floor a few times and see what goes wrong. At that point you have exceeded due diligence, most finished products you buy won't survive these conditions. Make sure you clearly state there are no refunds once assembly has begun and emphasize safety during construction and use. At that point each individual customer assumes responsibility for their ability to understand the circuit and build it properly, but if you don't have an EE degree it would be good to have an EE validate it in writing just in case anyone ever tried to sue you for their own mistakes.
On 7 Mar 2009 23:21:12 GMT, the renowned Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov>
wrote:

>John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in >news:9ng5r49t7stcdihp4h7q6l7718ull3hu66@4ax.com: > > >> --- >> You'd be better off getting legal advice from a lawyer rather than the >> likes of us.;) >> >> JF >> > >AMEN! I'd NEVER ask for legal advice on UseNet. >There's a "lawyer" posting on sci.military.naval that's a complete joke; >goes by the name of Vince Brannigan.Just Google for some of his nonsense.
OTOH, engineers in general have a much better grasp of civil law than most people-- aside from coming into contact with legal practitioners and process through creation of IP, expert witness, product liability and E&O concerns and such like, in many jurisdictions we are required to have and demonstrate such knowledge formally in order to get a license. The minority who are also business owners are generally well aware of business structures and commercial codes and practices from a legal as well as taxation and insurance pov. So, it's not silly to ask for legal advice, but it's reckless for a non-lawyer to offer it without appropriate disclaimers and it would be pretty stupid to *RELY* upon such advice. Given the high cost (and specialized scope) of good legal advice, it's not a bad idea to know what information to give a lawyer, what questions to ask, and which other professionals you will also have to consult. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in 
news:9ng5r49t7stcdihp4h7q6l7718ull3hu66@4ax.com:

 
> --- > You'd be better off getting legal advice from a lawyer rather than the > likes of us.;) > > JF >
AMEN! I'd NEVER ask for legal advice on UseNet. There's a "lawyer" posting on sci.military.naval that's a complete joke; goes by the name of Vince Brannigan.Just Google for some of his nonsense. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> wrote in 
news:49b2c08a$0$1666$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:

> Paul wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Is it legal to sell a kit that includes all of the parts, >> instructions, and diagrams so someone could build there own DC-DC >> Converter kit? > > Yes. But it's pointless. > > Nobody sells kits any more, other than in very tiny volume. It's > cheaper to have the whole thing assembled in Asia. > > Also, in an assembly plant, surface mount components, which are > cheaper, can be used. > > John Nagle >
Uh,hobbyists use SMD,too. I've used them. It's not that hard,you just need the right tools. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 11:18:31 -0800, John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> wrote:

>Paul wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Is it legal to sell a kit that includes all of the parts, >> instructions, and diagrams so someone could build there own DC-DC >> Converter kit? > > Yes. But it's pointless. > > Nobody sells kits any more, other than in very tiny volume. It's >cheaper to have the whole thing assembled in Asia. > > Also, in an assembly plant, surface mount components, which are >cheaper, can be used. > > John Nagle
SMT can also be used in kits, ya big dopey ditz.
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 08:41:07 -0800 (PST), Paul <energymover@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Hi, > >Is it legal to sell a kit that includes all of the parts, >instructions, and diagrams so someone could build there own DC-DC >Converter kit?
--- Yes. ---
>I believe it requires certifications (e.g., UL) to make >& sell DC-DC Converters,
--- Why? UL is a testing laboratory, not a regulatory agency, so they can't keep you from doing whatever you want to.
>so someone suggested selling kits until I >make enough $ to get the DC-DC Converter fully UL listed. The kit >would also include the DC batteries and the chassis. > >This seems a little iffy to me because what if there's a flaw in my >circuit design, someone buys my kit that includes all of the >directions and parts (everything) to make the DC-DC Converter, they >build it, and it burns down their house? That might be a guaranteed >lawsuit win for them, no?
--- You'd be better off getting legal advice from a lawyer rather than the likes of us.;) JF