On 02/11/2017 10:23 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 17:46:49 -0800, yanli0008 wrote:
>
>> &#22312; 2015&#24180;7&#26376;29&#26085;&#26143;&#26399;&#19977; UTC+8&#19978;&#21320;5:29:17&#65292;ChesterW&#20889;&#36947;&#65306;
>>> These guys claim a new modulation method that exceeds the data
>>> transmission rate set by the Shannon limit. Any opinions? Opinions on
>>> this topic that is, I KNOW you all have considerable opinions on other
>>> issues ;)
>>>
>>> http://www.astrapi-corp.com
>>>
>>> ChesterW
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> Has anyone read the paper "A Brief Introduction on Shannon's Information
>> Theory" by Ricky Chen, 	arXiv:1612.09316 [cs.IT]? I did not find
> any
>> error in the arguments there. So, mathematically, it seems there is a
>> little chance that Shannon's limit can be broken in certain channels.
>> Any idea?
>
> No, but I have read one of Shannon's papers from the 1940's.  Not only
> did I find it quite understandable, I think he made his point very well.
>
> If there are channels where the Shannon Capacity can be "broken", it's
> more likely that the channel is not one that's covered by the capacity
> theorem than that the theorem itself is faulty.
>
> On the other hand, the claims that I have seen about "breaking" the
> Shannon capacity theorem read more like arguments for perpetual motion
> machines than like serious mathematical treatises.
>

There isn't any "Shannon Limit." You can carry infinite information in a 
finite bandwidth no problem at all; the only tough part is to find a 
channel with -infinity dB of noise. ;-)

The reason that the claims seem like arguments for perpetual motion 
machines is that at the core the noisy channel theorem is isomorphic to 
the second law of thermodynamics. If you could find a way to bust the 
former then the latter is certainly busted as well

&#22312; 2017&#24180;2&#26376;12&#26085;&#26143;&#26399;&#26085; UTC+8&#19978;&#21320;11:23:22&#65292;Tim Wescott&#20889;&#36947;&#65306;
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 17:46:49 -0800, yanli0008 wrote:
> 
> > &#22312; 2015&#24180;7&#26376;29&#26085;&#26143;&#26399;&#19977; UTC+8&#19978;&#21320;5:29:17&#65292;ChesterW&#20889;&#36947;&#65306;
> >> These guys claim a new modulation method that exceeds the data
> >> transmission rate set by the Shannon limit. Any opinions? Opinions on
> >> this topic that is, I KNOW you all have considerable opinions on other
> >> issues ;)
> >> 
> >> http://www.astrapi-corp.com
> >> 
> >> ChesterW
> > 
> > Hi all
> > 
> > Has anyone read the paper "A Brief Introduction on Shannon's Information
> > Theory" by Ricky Chen, 	arXiv:1612.09316 [cs.IT]? I did not find 
> any
> > error in the arguments there. So, mathematically, it seems there is a
> > little chance that Shannon's limit can be broken in certain channels.
> > Any idea?
> 
> No, but I have read one of Shannon's papers from the 1940's.  Not only 
> did I find it quite understandable, I think he made his point very well.
> 
> If there are channels where the Shannon Capacity can be "broken", it's 
> more likely that the channel is not one that's covered by the capacity 
> theorem than that the theorem itself is faulty.
> 
> On the other hand, the claims that I have seen about "breaking" the 
> Shannon capacity theorem read more like arguments for perpetual motion 
> machines than like serious mathematical treatises.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Tim Wescott
> Wescott Design Services
> http://www.wescottdesign.com
> 
> I'm looking for work -- see my website!

Thanks, Tim.
The basic argument in Chen's paper is that, he claimed that given a channel, only sequences satisfying the same statistic distribution were allowed to transmit through the channel in Shannon's original paper. If we are allowed to pick sequences satisfying any distribution, there might be a chance we can pick more distinguishable sequences than shannon's limit.

My personal question is: why did Shannon only consider sequences satisfying the same distribution? did he prove somewhere that there will be no gain by considering the general case as Chen did here?

Yan

On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 21:23:14 -0600, Tim Wescott
<seemywebsite@myfooter.really> wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 17:46:49 -0800, yanli0008 wrote:
>
>> ? 2015?7?29???? UTC+8??5:29:17?ChesterW???
>>> These guys claim a new modulation method that exceeds the data
>>> transmission rate set by the Shannon limit. Any opinions? Opinions on
>>> this topic that is, I KNOW you all have considerable opinions on other
>>> issues ;)
>>> 
>>> http://www.astrapi-corp.com
>>> 
>>> ChesterW
>> 
>> Hi all
>> 
>> Has anyone read the paper "A Brief Introduction on Shannon's Information
>> Theory" by Ricky Chen, 	arXiv:1612.09316 [cs.IT]? I did not find 
>any
>> error in the arguments there. So, mathematically, it seems there is a
>> little chance that Shannon's limit can be broken in certain channels.
>> Any idea?
>
>No, but I have read one of Shannon's papers from the 1940's.  Not only 
>did I find it quite understandable, I think he made his point very well.
>
>If there are channels where the Shannon Capacity can be "broken", it's 
>more likely that the channel is not one that's covered by the capacity 
>theorem than that the theorem itself is faulty.
>
>On the other hand, the claims that I have seen about "breaking" the 
>Shannon capacity theorem read more like arguments for perpetual motion 
>machines than like serious mathematical treatises.

I was engaged to design circuits for an anonymous company in Tucson
who claimed same.  I was canned as soon as I started asking
penetrating questions.

I suspect they were fleecing investors... claiming many doctors and
dentists as investors.

They appear to now be defunct.
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 17:46:49 -0800, yanli0008 wrote:

> &#22312; 2015&#24180;7&#26376;29&#26085;&#26143;&#26399;&#19977; UTC+8&#19978;&#21320;5:29:17&#65292;ChesterW&#20889;&#36947;&#65306;
>> These guys claim a new modulation method that exceeds the data
>> transmission rate set by the Shannon limit. Any opinions? Opinions on
>> this topic that is, I KNOW you all have considerable opinions on other
>> issues ;)
>> 
>> http://www.astrapi-corp.com
>> 
>> ChesterW
> 
> Hi all
> 
> Has anyone read the paper "A Brief Introduction on Shannon's Information
> Theory" by Ricky Chen, 	arXiv:1612.09316 [cs.IT]? I did not find 
any
> error in the arguments there. So, mathematically, it seems there is a
> little chance that Shannon's limit can be broken in certain channels.
> Any idea?

No, but I have read one of Shannon's papers from the 1940's.  Not only 
did I find it quite understandable, I think he made his point very well.

If there are channels where the Shannon Capacity can be "broken", it's 
more likely that the channel is not one that's covered by the capacity 
theorem than that the theorem itself is faulty.

On the other hand, the claims that I have seen about "breaking" the 
Shannon capacity theorem read more like arguments for perpetual motion 
machines than like serious mathematical treatises.

-- 

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!

&#22312; 2015&#24180;7&#26376;29&#26085;&#26143;&#26399;&#19977; UTC+8&#19978;&#21320;5:29:17&#65292;ChesterW&#20889;&#36947;&#65306;
> These guys claim a new modulation method that exceeds the data 
> transmission rate set by the Shannon limit. Any opinions? Opinions on 
> this topic that is, I KNOW you all have considerable opinions on other 
> issues ;)
> 
> http://www.astrapi-corp.com
> 
> ChesterW

Hi all

Has anyone read the paper "A Brief Introduction on Shannon's Information Theory" by Ricky Chen, 	arXiv:1612.09316 [cs.IT]? I did not find any error in the arguments there. So, mathematically, it seems there is a little chance that Shannon's limit can be broken in certain channels. Any idea?

Yan

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 18:03:42 -0400, Phil Hobbs <hobbs@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> Oh, dear, the orbital angular momentum folks have come to microwave.  A 
> few years back the original OAM people were claiming that there was this 
> vast number of completely untapped propagation modes in fibres that 
> would allow some ridiculous gross bandwidth increase.
>
> Then some saner folks published this beautiful 
> letter-to-the-journal-editor that I can't lay my hands on...it showed 
> that if the OAM people were correct, the blackbody radiation from a hot 
> object would go up by a similar ridiculously large factor, which is not 
> observed.  The OAM states aren't new-and-different, they're just another 
> basis set for the EM field.  Nothing to see here folks, show's over, 
> move along.

Shucks, Phil, I missed it again. I really wanted to see the Egress. <grin>


Frank McKenney
-- 
  The thing which keeps life romantic and full of fiery possibilities
  is the existence of these great plain limitations which force all
  of use to meet the things we do not like or do not expect.
     -- G.K. Chesterton: On the Institution of the Family (1905)
-- 
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney aatt mindspring ddoott com

Yup, more OAM snake oil. Under severe pressure the optical OAM folks have pretty much pulled in their horns on their wilder claims, but these bozos are still trying to cash in.  

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Den 28/07/15 kl. 23.29 skrev ChesterW:
> These guys claim a new modulation method that exceeds the data
> transmission rate set by the Shannon limit. Any opinions? Opinions on
> this topic that is, I KNOW you all have considerable opinions on other
> issues ;)
>
> http://www.astrapi-corp.com
>
> ChesterW

It is about OAM:

OAM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_angular_momentum_of_light

University of Southern California (2013, June 27). Breakthrough in
Internet bandwidth: New fiber optic technology could ease Internet
congestion, video streaming. ScienceDaily:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130627142406.htm
Citat: "...
the technology centers on donut-shaped laser light beams called optical
vortices, in which the light twists like a tornado as it moves along the
beam path, rather than in a straight line.
...
Unlike in conventional fibers, OAM modes in these specially designed
fibers can carry data streams across an optical fiber while remaining
separate at the receiving end.
..."

University of Southern California (2012, June 25). Scientists twist
light to send data: Beams of light can be twisted and combined to
transmit data dramatically faster. ScienceDaily:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120625133349.htm
"...
Willner and his colleagues used beam-twisting "phase holograms" to
manipulate eight beams of light so that each one twisted in a DNA-like
helical shape as it propagated in free space. Each of the beams had its
own individual twist and can be encoded with "1" and "0" data bits,
making each an independent data stream -- much like separate channels on
your radio.
..."

Institute of Physics. (2014, November 11). Twisted light waves sent
across Vienna. ScienceDaily
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/11/141111192233.htm
12 November 2014, 'Twisted light' beamed across Vienna:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29953239
"...
He told the BBC the team "really didn't know" whether their idea would
work. "We were definitely very surprised that it worked so well."
...
At the receiving end, a camera and a computer program recognised the
patterns, and re-created the pictures with an error rate of only 1.7%.
The researchers hope that their results, although preliminary, will help
the development of OAM technology for applications like Earth to
satellite communication.
...
"This is a proof of principle for how to encode and decode the 16
different channels," said Dr Michael Mazilu, a lecturer in the school of
physics and astronomy at the University of St Andrews.
...
Mark Neil, a professor of photonics at Imperial College London, was
impressed the team had overcome the problem of turbulence in the air.
"The big problem was... if you tried to put [twisted light] through a
normal atmosphere - you don't have to go very far and it messes up all
these OAM modes, and it's difficult to work out what's going on," Prof
Neil told BBC News.
"So this is quite interesting because they have found a way of
unravelling the different modes. They're sending patterns that they can
detect."
Prof Miles Padgett, who studies twisted light at the University of
Glasgow, also said that overcoming turbulence was a major problem that
the Vienna study had now begun to address.
"It's lovely work," he said. "It shows the potential of the system, and
it characterises the problems that people now need to work to overcome."
..."

Jun 25, 2012, Putting a new twist on optical communications:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/jun/25/putting-a-new-twist-on-optical-communications

OAM even works with a single photon:

Nov 1, 2012, Spooky action with twisted beams:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/nov/01/spooky-action-with-twisted-beams
"...
Using this technique, Zeilinger and co-workers found they could obtain
differences in quantum number as high as 600 (in other words l = +300 on
one photon and l = &ndash;300 on the other). Lapkiewicz points out that there
is, in theory, no upper limit to a photon's l value, which suggests that
a photon &ndash; a quantum object &ndash; could acquire as much OAM as a macroscopic
object, leading to what he calls a "tension between the quantum and
classical worlds".
..."

Feb 12, 2014, Clever technology decodes more information from single
photons:
http://phys.org/news/2014-02-clever-technology-decodes-photons.html

And with chip transmitters:

Oct 19, 2012, Chip puts a twist on light
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/oct/19/chip-puts-a-twist-on-light
"...
Physicists in the UK and China have produced silicon devices measuring
just a few thousandths of a millimetre across that can endow light beams
with a twistedness associated with orbital angular momentum. The
researchers say that by varying this property over a range of values,
such devices could increase the amount of bandwidth available for
telecommunications and underpin extremely powerful quantum computers.
...
The resulting interference pattern showed the hoped-for signature &ndash; a
spiral pattern with the right number of arms, given the amount of OAM
added to the light. "These spirals are exactly what theory predicts
should be seen, so there is no ambiguity at all in our result," says Yu.
...
Indeed, he says that they aim to produce devices that can emit different
OAM values at the same time. This, he claims, could enhance
telecommunication bandwidth, by increasing the number of channels
available, and boost the power of quantum computers &ndash; devices, still
under development, that promise much faster data crunching by processing
multiple quantum states simultaneously. "Currently, quantum computers
rely on electron spin or photon spin, which only have two states,
whereas OAM has many states," he explains.
..."
Science 19 October 2012, Integrated Compact Optical Vortex Beam Emitters:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/338/6105/363.abstract

On 7/29/2015 1:29 AM, John S wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 8:22 PM, rickman wrote:
>> On 7/28/2015 7:33 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 18:00:24 -0400, rickman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/28/2015 5:41 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 16:29:10 -0500, ChesterW <iamsnoozin@yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> These guys claim a new modulation method that exceeds the data
>>>>>> transmission rate set by the Shannon limit. Any opinions? Opinions on
>>>>>> this topic that is, I KNOW you all have considerable opinions on
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> issues ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.astrapi-corp.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ChesterW
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably just another "perpetual motion" fraudulent scheme like this
>>>>> one...
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://tmtechinc.com/>
>>>>
>>>> I don't see a description of how TM works, so how can you say it
>>>> doesn't
>>>> surpass the Shannon limit?  I will acknowledge it is unlikely to be
>>>> real, but until you know what it is, how can you say it is a fraud?
>>>
>>> The proof of the Shannon limit is pretty straightforward, and very clear
>>> cut:
>>>
>>> http://web.stanford.edu/class/ee104/shannonpaper.pdf
>>>
>>> The paper tries to disprove it for non-periodic signals, but they base
>>> their claims on the notion that the Fourier transform doesn't work for
>>> non-periodic signals -- which it does, admirably.
>>>
>>> At that point my BS detectors started ringing loudly, and I stopped
>>> reading.  I suspect that if you go deep enough into their paper they'll
>>> be making all these claims about their exponential or polynomial
>>> functions or whatever, and you'll find that at they're taking some
>>> infinitely-long signal in time and lopping it off to finite length --
>>> which will increase the bandwidth, which will blow their argument all to
>>> hell, etc., etc.
>>
>> But until you see what they are doing, you can't really say...
>>
>> I remember a paper many years ago that was looking at data which might
>> show discrepancies from the laws of gravity.  Yes, we have done lots and
>> lots of work with those laws and they seem solid enough.  But this was
>> taken seriously at the time.
>>
>> At some point they will have to protect their work with a patent.  Then
>> we will all get to see just what they are doing.
>>
>
> They claim "TM was issued its bedrock U.S. Patent, Number 9014293 on
> April 21, 2015 and has other U.S. and International patents pending."
>
> I didn't try to look up the patent.

Well, there you go then.  Now the real facts of the design can be 
discussed.

-- 

Rick